Falstaff

Oh yes of course.

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Judas

so that easily makes 2 of us....

someone should rebuild this as a poll

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BWX

The problem is the first post makes it sound like the the professor thinks the US is going to fade into nothingness or something and China will rule the world...

Of course China is a "world power".. but my suspicion is that some nutty professor is trying to indoctrinate students into thinking the US is going downhill into being nothing and that China will be the one world superpower in no time.

I guess it could happen, but I doubt it.. yes the US has some major problems that is bringing it down.. like idiotic immigration policies, ridiculous taxes, dumb energy policy, you name it- but that doesn't mean we are going to become a non world power any time soon. The freaking commies aren't going to be nuking us.

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One Big Ass Mistake America

Nacht

oh, I forgot one last interesting point that really makes the U.S. a "World Power".

The United States is less than 5% of world population;
yet generates >25% of world output.

BWX

I have heard it described as the most efficient civilization ever to exist. I don;'t think it is because we are somehow smart, stronger or somehow more "special" than anyone else though..

I think that ANY group of people or country in the world would be just as successful if given freedom and the opportunity. The Bill of Rights is what separates us from everyone else. Of course our freedoms are being taken away with each passing law and amendment, so soon wee will be no different than any other county, we will have no more opportunity or advantage than any other country, and will lose our current status as "the one superpower" or the leader of the free world.

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One Big Ass Mistake America

Nacht

Precisely BWX,

The key to economic success, among other things, is having clearly defined, enforced, and transferable property rights. Political stability, personal freedoms, and legal systems based on the rule of law are also necessities.

This is why communism failed. Without secued property rights, there is no point for private investment. That is why China can not be a true economic world power until it throws off its socialist based shackles of a government and puts in a multi-party, free-market based government.

cozumel

Incorrect. If the Peoples Republic of China continue with the same economic and socialist model currently used for the next twent years they WILL be the biggest economic power in the world. They will produce, export and employ more than any other country. Personal freedom and liberties do not come into the equation.

Maybe the question this thread should be asking is:
Is democracy and capitalism the only way to achieve economic success and global power?

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Nacht

Their current economic model is capitalism. That is why it is working. They are currently allowing private investment and property rights. Neither of these things are allowed in true communism. If China can grow this much with such a decrepit system as communism, imagine what could be done with a truly free market there.

China's experiment with capitalism started in a single factory in eastern China, and it has spread over most of the eastern section of the nation.

I would say that capitalism is the only way to acheive a lasting, powerful economy. Democracy probably isnt a necessity (as we are seeing with China), but it definitely helps speed up the growth process.

cozumel

It is not capitalism. It is a liberalisation of the economy. Any business that you or I wish to begin does not get investigated by the government as to whether it could 'corrupt' the fabric of the socialist state. There cannot be capitalism without a free market.

Depending on which source you look at, growth in India and China are expected to be at very similar levels over the next five years. India is a democracy with more free market trading. It is corruption that holds both countries back from progressing quicker. Communism, I don't believe, makes that much difference when looking at economic potential.

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Sturmbahn

I agree cozumel. China is riding on the US's back by dumping $billions of cheap products into the US and import very little back into China. The average consumer is happy to buy the cheap clothing, electronics, nearly anything both small and plastic, etc. They don't care where it's made, just the price. This will change either when China trades fairly (puts their currency on the free market, making their products more expensive), China's workers attain higher wages/benefits (making their products more expensive) or when the US consumers pay attention and change their buying habits to American only. Honestly though, it's somewhat difficult to blame Americans for buying Chinese products as this problem is so old that most of the home-grown companies
that China would compete with are long gone or gave up and moved their factories to China/India. Our market practically depends on cheap Chinese goods as there are few, if any, alternatives. I imagine that this holds true to the EU as well.

Freedom and opportunity are useless without responsibility and morality. These freedom-reducing laws are only put forward because people won't properly use the freedom and opportunity afforded them. Take guns for instance. There would be no need for gun control if people weren't idiots. How about abortion. If people (men and women) were responsible when alone together, there wouldn't be unwanted pregnancies (beyond rape or the potential death of a "responsible" mother - which abortion would be allowed for without the need to make it legal). This is why religion (I an agnostic, btw) is important - it keeps people in check. How can you go wrong with "treat others the way you want to be treated?"

BWX

Blaming the lawmaker's actions on the few idiots that commit crimes? Blaming abortion laws on unwed mothers? I don't think so, I blame the lawmaker's actions on the voters and corruption/greed. The voters that are becoming complacent and that have forgotten what it took from past generation of people who sacrificed everything so we could have the freedoms we have. The corruption of the lawmakers is obvious.. they take bribes basically- from special interest groups, etc...

Maybe if our justice system properly dealt with criminals there would be less criminals.. when someone gets a slap on the wrist for molesting children, the judge should be hung in town square. It's easy to make excuses for the government's corruption and blame it on the common criminal in the street or terrorists.. but the people are who they work for, we need to fire most of them.

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One Big Ass Mistake America

Pompey

Communism does hinder economic growth. China is only developing because it opened up to foreign investment - wealth generated in capitalist economies. The goods produced are exported back to capitalist countries. Just compare the economies of communist and ex-communist countries with western/capitalist ones.

I am a socialist but I recognise that the private sector is in most cases more efficient than the public sector. Personal gain is a great incentive to succeed (what ever you think of it, its true), and the whole structure of the capitalist system have proven to be very effective and efficient. Most negative effects of capitalism can be avoided/mineralised with some elements of the welfare state and regulation.

You cant, its the other religious dogma that causes the problems. You don’t need religion to be a decent person. I can live by the same principle without believing in gods or spirits. Also, conservstive religious people tend to be very judgemental (i.e. gay people and gay marriage).

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One's inability to find an answer to a question does not imply that the question has no answer.

bananaman

If world power means being able to leverage your position in world politics etc. then it should be noted that China holds absolutely huge USD reserves and , although it would be cutting off the nost to spite the face, China could completely collapse the USD by releasing all of their USD holdings at once.

"China may curb its future purchases of US Treasuries. The nation has been accumulating foreign reserves at a rate of $50 Billion per quarter and has become the second largest holders of US assets in the world.

from:

http://www.dailyfx.com/story/dailyfx...ification.html


who needs nukes when you have economics

but I tihnk the main point comes down to the fact that world powers wont exist how they did in the past with spheres of influence that are very clsed as the economy is now so global all the big players are so interlinked that one cannot really act without causing a stir in another.

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Falstaff

Hey if China raises the value of the their currency the world would be in big trouble...they have many countries by the short hairs economically

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Nacht

Well you believe incorrectly.

With communism, there are no property rights, and there are no private holdings. Therefore, you cannot stimulate long term private investment, as everything is "state owned"!

China has been backwards for a very, very long time. It is their experiment in capitalism (i.e., private holdings, foriegn investment) that is helping them break this cycle.

In any case, China's rise economically is a great thing, and shouldn't be feared. Neither should the slight devaluation of the dollar, nor the massive investment our nations share with one another.

I can go into a lot of ways that religion hurts this nation, socially, and economically. But I'll spare you.

Your first sentence here disturbs me. Freedom is in itself perfect. It is not "useless" without responsibility and morality. In fact, it is individual's interpretation of these two ideas (responsibility and morality) that restrics freedoms in the nation. What you consider moral, I may not...and therefore, you cannot run or base a system of government off of these ideas.

Just look at the middle east if you want proof...

cozumel

These two paragraphs are in conflict with each other.

Are you saying beacuse they are communist there are no private holdings? Are you also saying that during the course of their 'capitalist experiment' they are allowing private holdings? Which one is true?

Please clarify, because to be honest, your argument doesnt make sense IMO

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Nacht

I'm saying that the system of government in place does very much affect how the economy of a particular nation does.

My first paragraph you quoted is stating how communism hinders economic development, which backs up the statement I make above.

The second is showing why China is doing well. They're not contradicting each other, because China is not working with a 100% communist system anymore.

So, to answer your question, I'm saying both. Both statements are true.

Communism has no private holdings.
China is allowing private holdings and foriegn investment, both parts of capitalism.

cozumel

The economic system is not capitalism in China, it is Market Socialism. Tried briefly and abandoned by the Soviets in (I think) 1920. Also tried for various short periods in other socialist/marxist states over the last 50 years. For any system to be successful it must be sustained over a long period and this has been the longest period any socialist country has tried market socialism.

Just to say on-topic, IMO China is a world power and will be (if policies are continued) the next world superpower. I'm not sure if I like that or not but its the way it is...

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Nacht

I don't disagree with you. China isn't capitalist. However, private/foriegn investments and property rights are not part of traditional socialism/communism, they are usually found in capitalist states.

China will be a world power. I'm giving it 15-20 years. Right now they don't have enough influence economically. They are changing the world market, but they have yet to really influence others in a way similar to the United States.

By 2030, There will be 3-5 economic super powers in the world - The United States, China, India, the EU (if you count it as one economy), with some other possibilities thrown in.

- Azure -

On topic.

China GDP = 1op 5 out of hundreds.

China has nukes.

China has massive standing armies.

China has fertile rich lands.

China exports far more than it imports.

China is looking to be the leading manufacturer of hydro-cell powered cars.

China is depended upon for millions of goods worldwide.

China is an indisputable world power already and will only get stronger. Whether some US citizens start sweating about it is a different matter.

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Pompey

It’s nice to see you Americans think capitalism is such a good thing. Now maybe you (and Europe, Japan, Korea and almost eveyone else) can start lowering your agriculture subsidies and tariffs so productive NZ farmers can sell their goods (top quality milk, lamb, cheese etc) produced on unsubsidised 100% commercial farms in your markets.

Trade liberalisation w00t!

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One's inability to find an answer to a question does not imply that the question has no answer.

Nacht

Economic Liberalization (Free Trade, capitalism, etc) is the way to go. Getting the world to 100% free trade will be quite a task.

This is the primary reason that although I am a conservative, I'm not a republican. Republicans and Democrats alike block free trade and capitalism, as well as hurt businesses by supporting these protectionist plans (such as farm subsidies).

Sandok

The day the world reaches 100% free trade will be a welcome step...

The day the industries are all robotized (to the max) will be a welcome step...

If only I'd still be alive during those times To be honest, only in a dictatorship do things get done.

BWX

Yeah... that's true.

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One Big Ass Mistake America

Sandok

Hey techincally, a democracy is the best in terms of freedom but nothing ever gets done. Look at France for example, bills take forever and all (in any democracy) and then look at china... They say something, it gets done.

Both system have their advantages and disadvantages.

BWX

Well things may take longer to get done.. but saying "things never get done"? That wouldn't be true..

In China all kinds of environmental tragedies happen.. human rights are non-existent... etc.. Freedom information? Ha! not a chance. People in China don't even know about tank man...

-nothing gets done unless it serves the government, that is the problem.

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One Big Ass Mistake America

Pompey

In a democracy things never get done?!?!?!
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the other ones we’ve tried". In a dictatorship, a decision is not fully thought through, something goes wrong and they instantly look for a scapegoat. Some guy is killed and the whole country is worse off.
Occasionally a dictatorship can work (I guess Singapore would be a good example, and Nazi Germany in the early years) but on the whole a few end up living in palaces with the majority living in poverty (do you want examples?). Strong leadership can be achieved without a dictatorship i.e Margaret Thatcher or David Lange.


The thing I notice in democracies: People vote for the politicians who make the wrong choices or rally against reform and refuse to shoulder any of the blame themselves when things go bad e.g. France.

EDIT: Im reading a good article on the liberalisation of the New Zealand agricultural sector and fount this but that I though was relevant:
Im developing a sense of pride as I read more and more lol

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One's inability to find an answer to a question does not imply that the question has no answer.

Callandor

Chinese are the second biggest buyers of the BMW 7 series class after America, so much so that BMW is opening a plant in China that will be making a type of BMW 7 series that is much more luxurious than the normal highest 7 series one. Chinese bombs are cheap to make and even cheaper for the average poor country to buy and plentiful as hell, they're a good investment to put your money in too. Their economy grew like 21 percent or something last year and it's growing so fast they're worried it's growing too fast and they're actually taking measures to slow it down this year to prevent overheating their economy and it burning out on the environment and also increasing the gap between the have and the have nots. Airbus is moving one of it's major plants to China over time and a big Italian helicopter company had to move it's less specialized operation there or face shut down due to the extremely agressive competition they were enduring in the world market especially from India. Tata, a major car company from India is increasing it's sales dramatically in Africa and the developing world even selling most off-road vehicles and trucks to the governments of those respective regions, and is now listed on the JSE or Johanesburg Stock Exchange in Sourth Africa(Jo'burg being the largest city in the southern hemisphere, as you know South Africa is also a major player in the southern hemisphere) and it seems to be doing pretty well advertising even on CNN and other big news channels and networks like that. Chinese are the biggest race in number on earth, followed by Indians, and China I think are a member along with Canada, the UK and America in the G8. Also, a survey recently done reported that China WILL in 2020 be the second richest country after America. And it is true, if you paid any attention to the "I hate every country in the world thread" earlier posted in the flame sec., America's national debt is something like 3 trillion dollars and something, and has been rising by 2.43 billion dollars every day since September 2004 or 5 if I remember correctly according to data earlier dug up (or thought up ) by our very own PJ here on driverheaven. Where do you think all of America's money comes from? You don't just send an army out like that without having friends who are arabs and/or jews and stuff, the richest people in the world. That's why Bush is so interested in oil and his best friends are the orders of Kuwaiti and stuff, the turban wearing fellows on OPEC and sultans of the desert. Money doesen't just come from no where like that, you should know that.

Like it or lump it China are a super heavy power. And things aren't going to change anytime soon in the opposite way unless you mean in the good way of them growing. You should watch news more and business news and you will know this. I'm going to read this thread now and get back to concluding, I only managed to get as far as Jeff's second or third post before I couldn't help jumping in.

Oh, and if you come to Soutehrn Aftrica or any other African region for that matter you will see that the majority of businesses, especially wholesale value shops like walmart and construction companies (these are mostly to the chinese) are owned expressly by Chinese and Indians. So much so that the local population don't like them and often voice their xenophobia toward these people through the papers and all sorts of media and varieties. These guys build buildings in like two seconds and I mean that literally. They use flood lights by night and the hot african sun by day along with unique building techniques used in their own countries and matched by none to get ahead of other South African contracters and all others. These buildings I think are also of extraordinary durability for the time in which they are built. These guys own the world guys whether you like that or not and are going to keep pwning as the time goes on.

Edit: And to add to the Africa thing, almost the whole entire airforce of Botswana, a country located above South Africa in southern Africa is flown by dudes from the indian army who are training them and China has some land reclaiming programme that is used to reclaim land from the dessert, sort of like terraforming, that is thriving in the southern african region. They are excellent farmers. India makes alot of weapons and military vehicles which it exports as well.

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Falstaff

well put....

anyone who thinks China is not a world power should put their heads back into the hole and think happy thoughts..

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Judas

indeed

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