Microsoft loses software ruling in California case

***Zardon*** · Oct 20, 2002, 01:07 PM

SAN FRANCISCO â€” Court findings that Microsoft unlawfully protected its monopoly for personal-computer software can be used in a suit by California computer owners seeking billions of dollars in damages, a judge said.
The ruling is a setback to the Redmond software company, which had sought to keep the findings in the federal government's antitrust lawsuit from being used in the California case. The consumers claim they were forced to pay inflated prices for software because of Microsoft's monopoly.

"You've just taken care of half the case," said Ernest Gellhorn, an antitrust law professor at George Mason University in Arlington, Va. "That's an enormous victory."

San Francisco Superior Court Judge Paul Alvarado said jurors in the lawsuit, scheduled for trial in February, should be given a judge's findings from the federal government's antitrust case that Microsoft illegally protected its Windows monopoly for personal-computer operating software.

As part of their instructions, the jurors will get either a written copy or will be read as many as 350 of the 412 findings by a federal judge in the District of Columbia.

"It drastically reduces the time required to try the case," said Eugene Crew, an attorney representing California consumers.

Robert Rosenfeld, Microsoft's lawyer, sought to minimize the significance of the ruling.

It affects "a small portion of their case and their claims," Rosenfeld said. He had argued that the findings weren't relevant to the California case because they didn't relate to violations of state law claimed in the consumers' suit.

Alvarado told both sides to jointly create a list of findings to be provided to the jury.

The suit filed on behalf of 13 million California consumers says Microsoft is liable for $2 billion in overcharges and seeks as much as $6 billion because damages can be tripled under state law. The suit is one of dozens of antitrust cases filed against Microsoft.

The federal government has proposed a settlement of its 4-year-old antitrust lawsuit against Microsoft under which the company would give computer users an easy way to hide Microsoft programs they don't wish to use.

The California plaintiffs still have to prove that they paid a higher price for Windows because Microsoft has a monopoly, and must show how Microsoft's illegal conduct affected the price independent of any lawful conduct or other marketplace factor, Gellhorn said.

"They've got to show how much they paid" above an economist's estimate of what the price would be in a competitive marketplace, the law professor said. By Karen Gullo

digitalwanderer · Oct 20, 2002, 01:30 PM

[COLOR=limegreen][SIZE=xx-large]WOOOO-HOOOOO!!!!!!![/SIZE] [/COLOR]

~~JAV~~ · Oct 20, 2002, 02:14 PM

California may have some screwy laws, but when it comes to Consumer Protection > our laws have teeth!

Question for the board: Should nVidia be next for their claims that GF4 MX cards support DX8.1?

JAV
GBA!

Vampyromaniac · Oct 20, 2002, 02:16 PM

dig', you're not in CA! LOL

Rayder · Oct 20, 2002, 02:41 PM

Hey! Microsoft. See this --> . <-- That's the smallest violin in the world playing, "My heart bleeds for You" HA HA HA!

digitalwanderer · Oct 20, 2002, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vampyromaniac
dig', you're not in CA! LOL

And believe me that is of my own choosing! (I'm not a big California fan, nothing against it but it just doesn't seem like my kind of place.)

But there's this magic word in our country called "precedence"...

Not to mention that anything that hurts M$ is just all good.

Forrest · Oct 21, 2002, 03:29 AM

I've worked on Unix systems, IBM Mainframes, Unisys Mainframes, Tandem Mid and Vax systems as well as PC's.

I can remember the days before Windows 95 when I had to boot off different floppy disks to play different games, I do not want to go back along that path.

Now Microsoft might have made some pretty non-ethical business decisions but go fire a Windows 3.1 machine up and see how far they have brought this industry, in fact if Windows hadn't taken off you would now be using OS/2 Warp and that really is crap.

If Microsoft goes out of business then wave bye bye to games. DirectX is Microsoft's, it is not open source.

Every development house is not going to suddenly switch to OpenGL.

Linux is not going to take up the slack.

Having said that if Apple don't bring OS X out as an O/S then they could be going to the wall as well.

Could the admins take a poll of what O/S's people are running here because I am willing to bet that it's at least 90% windows and guess what guys, this is a geek site.

Matth · Oct 21, 2002, 07:24 AM

If APPLE had chosen to go the licencing route, instead of keeping it all to themselves - we'd all be using Apple compatibles instead of PC compatibles.

In my experience, DOS games fell in just a few categories for memory management:
1. Used own manager, intolerant of anything else (rare)
2. Used XMS (HIMEM)
3. Used EMS (HIMEM/EMM386)
4. Of those that would work with EMM386, many needed LOADHIGH's to maximize conv memory

I think I got by with about TWO boot floppies.

I think GEM was a better window environment - the only plus Windows had was that it had support for running DOS apps in a Window - a feature which is now of no real importance whatsoever.

Kelsenellenelvian · Oct 21, 2002, 08:55 AM

I have had mac, commodor, and all of windows even though windos is buggy (But getter a lot better) it allows for a wider range of software and hardware and with out it everything would have to be system-specific ie... mac and competitive values would no longer be needed prices would go throuhgh the roof and everyone that had huge librarys and mega-systems would be screwed.

The_Sire · Oct 22, 2002, 08:01 PM

money talks people you know this. Bill might loose a battle but he wont loose the war.
Just like with other companies if things come to worse , he will close the doors and reopen it under a different name. And in America that this can be done i know alot of companies that have done that from steel factories to paper mills.

So they over charged ok we ll know this ever since windows95 came out look at the price of what windows3.11 with workgroup was to windows95 just a few enhancements but still based on DOS. The price was a big hikeup.

So lets just sit back and see what the courts do. Who in the real end will they favor.!?

Oct 20, 2002, 01:07 PM	#1
*Zardon* enchanted Join Date: May 2002 Location: Driverheaven Posts: 32,252 Rep Power: 3150	Microsoft loses software ruling in California case SAN FRANCISCO â€” Court findings that Microsoft unlawfully protected its monopoly for personal-computer software can be used in a suit by California computer owners seeking billions of dollars in damages, a judge said. The ruling is a setback to the Redmond software company, which had sought to keep the findings in the federal government's antitrust lawsuit from being used in the California case. The consumers claim they were forced to pay inflated prices for software because of Microsoft's monopoly. "You've just taken care of half the case," said Ernest Gellhorn, an antitrust law professor at George Mason University in Arlington, Va. "That's an enormous victory." San Francisco Superior Court Judge Paul Alvarado said jurors in the lawsuit, scheduled for trial in February, should be given a judge's findings from the federal government's antitrust case that Microsoft illegally protected its Windows monopoly for personal-computer operating software. As part of their instructions, the jurors will get either a written copy or will be read as many as 350 of the 412 findings by a federal judge in the District of Columbia. "It drastically reduces the time required to try the case," said Eugene Crew, an attorney representing California consumers. Robert Rosenfeld, Microsoft's lawyer, sought to minimize the significance of the ruling. It affects "a small portion of their case and their claims," Rosenfeld said. He had argued that the findings weren't relevant to the California case because they didn't relate to violations of state law claimed in the consumers' suit. Alvarado told both sides to jointly create a list of findings to be provided to the jury. The suit filed on behalf of 13 million California consumers says Microsoft is liable for $2 billion in overcharges and seeks as much as $6 billion because damages can be tripled under state law. The suit is one of dozens of antitrust cases filed against Microsoft. The federal government has proposed a settlement of its 4-year-old antitrust lawsuit against Microsoft under which the company would give computer users an easy way to hide Microsoft programs they don't wish to use. The California plaintiffs still have to prove that they paid a higher price for Windows because Microsoft has a monopoly, and must show how Microsoft's illegal conduct affected the price independent of any lawful conduct or other marketplace factor, Gellhorn said. "They've got to show how much they paid" above an economist's estimate of what the price would be in a competitive marketplace, the law professor said. By Karen Gullo

Oct 20, 2002, 01:30 PM	#2
digitalwanderer Colour Commentator Join Date: May 2002 Location: Highland, IN USA Posts: 5,621 Rep Power: 0	I guess there's only one thing to say.... [COLOR=limegreen][SIZE=xx-large]WOOOO-HOOOOO!!!!!!![/SIZE] [/COLOR] __________________ WTF is up with the sigs?

Oct 20, 2002, 02:16 PM	#4
Vampyromaniac confutatis maledictis Join Date: May 2002 Location: somewhere dark Posts: 5,974 Rep Power: 60 System Specs	dig', you're not in CA! LOL __________________ *Digitalis 3.3* Athlon 64 3000 // ASUS K8V SE Deluxe // 1024MB PC3200 (2-2-2-10 1T) ATI All-In-Wonder 9700 Pro // 20" Dell 2005FPW (DVI) M-Audio Revo 7.1 + Philips Acoustic Edge // Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 320/16 Western Digital WD3200KS + 120/8 Seagate 7200.7 NEC ND-3550A 16x DVD±RW + Lite-On 52x24x CD-RW Antec Sonata case // 480W Antec TruePower personal bests \|\| Aq'3: 46796 \| 3D'01: 20461 \| 3D'03: 6336 \| 3D'05: 2677 \| PC'04: 4605 \| PC'02: 7691,9092,1250

Oct 20, 2002, 02:41 PM	#5
Rayder Mostly lurking lately.... Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 2,037 Rep Power: 51	Hey! Microsoft. See this --> . <-- That's the smallest violin in the world playing, "My heart bleeds for You" HA HA HA! __________________

Oct 21, 2002, 03:29 AM	#7
Forrest DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 2 Rep Power: 0	Why is it all good? I've worked on Unix systems, IBM Mainframes, Unisys Mainframes, Tandem Mid and Vax systems as well as PC's. I can remember the days before Windows 95 when I had to boot off different floppy disks to play different games, I do not want to go back along that path. Now Microsoft might have made some pretty non-ethical business decisions but go fire a Windows 3.1 machine up and see how far they have brought this industry, in fact if Windows hadn't taken off you would now be using OS/2 Warp and that really is crap. If Microsoft goes out of business then wave bye bye to games. DirectX is Microsoft's, it is not open source. Every development house is not going to suddenly switch to OpenGL. Linux is not going to take up the slack. Having said that if Apple don't bring OS X out as an O/S then they could be going to the wall as well. Could the admins take a poll of what O/S's people are running here because I am willing to bet that it's at least 90% windows and guess what guys, this is a geek site.

Oct 20, 2002, 02:14 PM	#3
~~JAV~~ Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: California, USA Posts: 283 Rep Power: 0	California may have some screwy laws, but when it comes to Consumer Protection > our laws have teeth! Question for the board: Should nVidia be next for their claims that GF4 MX cards support DX8.1? JAV GBA!

Oct 21, 2002, 07:24 AM	#8
Matth Flash Banner Hater Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: UK Posts: 3,202 Rep Power: 57 System Specs	If APPLE had chosen to go the licencing route, instead of keeping it all to themselves - we'd all be using Apple compatibles instead of PC compatibles. In my experience, DOS games fell in just a few categories for memory management: 1. Used own manager, intolerant of anything else (rare) 2. Used XMS (HIMEM) 3. Used EMS (HIMEM/EMM386) 4. Of those that would work with EMM386, many needed LOADHIGH's to maximize conv memory I think I got by with about TWO boot floppies. I think GEM was a better window environment - the only plus Windows had was that it had support for running DOS apps in a Window - a feature which is now of no real importance whatsoever. __________________ Mary had a little lamb, Her father shot it dead Now Mary takes her lamb to school, Between two crusts of bread

Oct 21, 2002, 08:55 AM	#9
Kelsenellenelvian Master of my own Destiny Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: EverDawn Kingdom,TruEarth Posts: 1,395 Rep Power: 0	I have had mac, commodor, and all of windows even though windos is buggy (But getter a lot better) it allows for a wider range of software and hardware and with out it everything would have to be system-specific ie... mac and competitive values would no longer be needed prices would go throuhgh the roof and everyone that had huge librarys and mega-systems would be screwed. __________________ [color=#0000ff] Download Windows Post-Install Wizard v4.3.8 and WPI Lite v1.2 Here [/color][color=red][color=blue][/color][/color]

Oct 22, 2002, 08:01 PM	#10
The_Sire DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: midwest, USA Posts: 54 Rep Power: 0	Microsoft will always come out ahead money talks people you know this. Bill might loose a battle but he wont loose the war. Just like with other companies if things come to worse , he will close the doors and reopen it under a different name. And in America that this can be done i know alot of companies that have done that from steel factories to paper mills. So they over charged ok we ll know this ever since windows95 came out look at the price of what windows3.11 with workgroup was to windows95 just a few enhancements but still based on DOS. The price was a big hikeup. So lets just sit back and see what the courts do. Who in the real end will they favor.!? __________________ MSI KT400 Ultra (msi-6390) Amd Athlon Xp 2600+ barton 1024meg ddr pc2700 Nvidia G4 TI 4200 4x onboard 5.1 2 - 80 gig maxtor hard drives 3com NIC (3c905c-tx) TDK 440n DVD burner Buslink 16x dvd