[Judas]

actually it's the governments that are protecting the children from being correctly disiplined......

and on top of it... the weight of a handful of idiot parents that think you shouldn't ever have to lay a hand on a child... even in public..


Guad, nothing like getting an ass tanning in a mcdonalds filled to the roof with people..... brilliant....

[Vikingod]

Originally Posted by Judas

actually it's the governments that are protecting the children from being correctly disiplined......

and on top of it... the weight of a handful of idiot parents that think you shouldn't ever have to lay a hand on a child... even in public..


Guad, nothing like getting an ass tanning in a mcdonalds filled to the roof with people..... brilliant....

I what country do you live in where there is a law against disciplining your child?

I believe in most western countries, it's perfectly legal to give your child a spanking and send them to their room. If I'm wrong, correct me. It isn't, and shouldn't be, legal to beat your child down in the middle of a McDonalds to the point its considered abuse. Yes, "abuse" is a grey area, and it should be, as I doubt there are any indictable cases of abuse which didn't cross that line. It's my observation that there are FAR more cases of parents abusing their children and not being held accountable. I also speculate that a good percentage of these abused kids end up commiting the sort of violent acts that we are discussing.

To keep the thread on track, I digress...

[Zelig]

Originally Posted by Vikingod

I believe in most western countries, it's perfectly legal to give your child a spanking and send them to their room. If I'm wrong, correct me.

Google gives this list of countries where spanking is illegal: Japan, Sweden, Switzerland, Spain, Iceland, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Austria, the Netherlands, Germany, Hungary, Israel, Italy, Malta, Cyprus, Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine, Spain, Latvia, Estonia, Greece, South Africa and New Zealand.



I guess I'm going to be the odd one out with my opinions in this thread;

I think important issues involving crimes should be dealt with using reason, rather than strong emotions. In most western countries, statistically, overall crime has been in long term decline for decades.

Studies have shown that when laws that are "tough on crime" are enacted, they have little effect on the crime rate. More important than punishment is education, poverty reduction, rehabilitation, and other prevention measures.

While I have no moral qualms about harsh sentences for people who are guilty, the justice system invariably makes mistakes, and some amount of innocent people are forced to endure punishments for crimes they didn't commit. With harsher punishments, reparations become more difficult, not only monetarily, but ethically as well.

Regarding parenting, I think it plays a huge part in the issues being discussed. I suspect the media also shares a good portion of blame. I don't know if there's any good solution though, without impugning peoples' rights.

[kris23]

Originally Posted by Wilier

So this is only my second post on the forum, and Im jumping into a fairly hot subject here......

Im 36, I have 2 daughters aged 5 and 8. We live in the country in a fairly remote farm house and I am absolutely cr***ing myself looking to the future.
If society is like this now, whats it gonna be like in 10 (or even 5) years when my girls are old enough to be out by themselves?

Maybe its because we live away from the village, but there is no way on this earth I would let my 8yr old out on the street by herself. I know she will get the "world view" when shes at school every day, but we try our best to keep them sheltered from all the rubbish that kids are going through at far too young an age.

When I was a kid, I used to hide behind the sofa when Doctor Who was on the telly and The Incredible Hulk gave me nightmares. I didnt watch my first horror film until I was about 15, I think it was Hammer House of Horrors?
These days, and I may be deviating from the topic a little here, kids are subjected to all sorts of violence and horror from a very early age, and call me rediculous, but Im absoulutely convinced that kids are influenced by what they see on the telly and play in games. You cant blame the kids, its like someone already said, its the parents that are the issue but we have to remember that in a lot of cases we are dealing with parents who have only just learned to walk up-right and really dont deserve to have kids at all.

As far as the incident that Zardon started the thread with, its truely shocking. That poor woman will be scarred for life, as will her children. If they catch the idiots who committed this horrible crime, they really should consider hanging........by the balls.......until they fall off.

/rant

Hi btw.

hey and Welcome to DH Willier.

as a 15 year old living in the ghettos of LA i have to say this, having your kids grow up in an urban society where bits of the problems of the world surround them is the BEST form of education about life you can give them.

HOWEVER, it is very tricky, you have to show it to them slowly and in a manner in which they can understand in their young age. it is EXTREMELY important for them to know about the things like the gangs, unregulated drugs like extacy, meth, cocaine, and marijuana. and their uniqueness as women in this place. they need to know that they tend to be more of a target than a man and should be prepared with some form of protection, most people here carry tasers or some muscle bound boyfriend, or a large click (group of good friends)

pretty much the only way they will learn is if they experience it themselves, this goes for just about anything, whether it be drugs or something else, they need to know what exactly it (it being any questionable component in life) can do to them. as long as they have someone watching them and know what they're doing then thats good.

the absolute WORST thing you can do is deny them access to do something, very few times does the average teenager conform to the will of their parent(s). thats why my parents didnt let me touch the stove, eventually i touched it out of stubbornness and now i know not to with the scar on my arm.... same with smoking, i didn't like the waste pathetic waste of money, and the smell of smoke, so i dont do it. spend the money on something that will actually benefit me like a gold chain or new speakers.

the same sort of problems will confront you in some form later as they get older. so dont deny them anything, just inquire information and let them go. most of the time if a kid wants to do something, they'll do it no matter what. theyre smarter than most people think. i for one, am very good at covering my tracks. and once they do it, they'll go overboard, potientally hurt themselves alot worse out of dislike of the parent compared to when they would have been if they were just given their own responsibilities.

being naive is the most dangerous thing to their health. let them go out, send them to public school or a crappy private school, dont monitor their internet visits and don't get all frustrated if they have a boyfriend, most of the time, the boyfriend will keep them in a bit of a check, but you need to do the rest. the average kid will never open themselves up to someone easily 20-30 years their senior so thats something

all in all, talk to your kids, let them do what they want, provide for them. if they do something wrong, have them take responsibility, ive seen alot of people who went to jail all screwed up come out 2-3 years later all straightened out and not homosexual (jails in the U.S. have the tendency to make the long term inmates crazy regardless of sex)

keep up with trends, let them get piercings, body art, and dont judge people by the way they dress. you have bigger things to worry about.

BIGGEST point in life, dont EVER blow up in anger at your kids. they usually have enough drama in their lives already you will completely sever the ties to them and they will never tell you any truth about what theyre doing in life. you need to know what theyre doing and just talk to them about it, and if they say "I know!" then nearly all the time, they know and completely understand.

also, make sure they get along ok, because if you guys (the parents) arent around, they need someone else to turn to if they get into trouble, each other.

with 5 and 8 year olds, you're just getting started, they'll be a REAL handful once they hit their teen years. just becareful and expect sleepless nights. and just show you care for them but dont sound like an asshole or else they'll lose all respect for you.

[dj_stick]

wow kris, i didn't realise you were so young, but that was a brilliant post

[kris23]

thanks lol, i tend to notice alot of things

[slugbug]

Crimes like that warrant public hanging..................by the genitals!

[LHC]

I don't entirely agree with your post, Kris. While there are extreme consequences for parents to be over-protective (Pink Floyd - Mother anyone?), parents should be a bit more protective than what you've stated.

Letting kids try what they want is not always the best option. Letting your kids try marijuana, or even smoking, would not be a good way to go simply because even if they don't like it and get addicted, it is very, very hard to stop, especially for a teenager. It is easier to stop when you're more mature, but teenagers just aren't strong enough to fight the urge. And if they begin to quit when they are more mature, the effects on their body will have already taken a grave toll.

Also, having sex as a teenager is not a good idea because no matter how careful you are, pregnancy is always possible. Way too much drama goes along with being a teenage mother, even if the parents are taking care of the child. There are better, safer ways for teenagers to have fun. While I don't think parents should monitor every action, they should definately not let their kids try anything once.

Though this is completely different cultures talking. I'm 17 and live in North Jersey, but I'm extremely against the parents letting kids do anything approach. The less guidence that parents have for their kids, the more troubled life they will have when they grow up (not in every case, but most cases I think so).

[kris23]

thats why i made emphasis on monitoring them as best as possible,

doing marijuana and such things are bad. as a parent they need to guide them but there are just "those" people that are extremely stubborn. but really, around here a kid will do it anyway unless they are literally in solitary confinement and not even aloud to go into school.

letting kids go about their stuff blindly is EXTREMELY dangerous though they need to be given at least some right to their own life. thats why i said they need parents to help out and get them to go on the right track. but if they had any drive to go anywhere with their lives, they would check themselves into rehab centers. there are small cases around here with a certain straght A student smoking weed, still has a shot at life, but the rest usually arent like that

to teach a kid not to play with fire, its necessary to let them get burned, just dont let them burn to a cinder is the best way to approach some of the more immature/ slow people out there that cant understand it without getting hands-on.

sex is one of those things that one shouldnt ever proomote, but media does it anyway, they will probably do it anyway unless they arent allowed to socialize, but then again, if they cared about anything in their life, they would go to a teen pregnancy center and get tested and or get the birth-control pills to move on with their life, lesson learned.

most kids have at least some drive to get to where they want, and to ensure that they get there and have all the academic and street knowledge, they need a parent who will calmly get them out of a jam if they cant do it alone.

let the kids do what they want, but know what they're doing and they will open up to you in entirety, tell them what to avoid and make sure they understand. but you must not lower yourself to that of an equal as they will slowly lose respect for you. but really parenting and the law are two totally different things and if some kid is caught.... then you have all means as parents to get them to deal with it.

if stuff happens and they dont want to get out, you cant force them, thats not a flaw in parenting or anything i see in what i said, its a flaw in that blessing and curse called free will combined with the person's character. each person is unique, even if two people were raised exactly the same, there will be differences

[Vikingod]

@Zelig

I wasn't aware it was illegal to spank your children in those countries (or that google had that function, worth looking into), thanks for the info, it's very interesting.

Honestly, I agree with those countries to an extent. I don't think it's necessary to hit kids for any reason. They're just kids, and I don't see anything productive to it. While I think those countries approach is a bit invasive, maybe it's necessary to draw the line where it begins.

I personally would never hit my kids out of anger, I'm far too strong, and could easily hurt them, especially if I was really upset. If it comes to that, I simply send them to their room untill I get my head about me. I find other ways to "teach them a lesson", as it were. And it seems to work so far; they are well behaved, and respect myself and others. I personally find teaching reason and control to be a far more effective tactic in the long run. If the need to make them "feel bad" about what they did, it doesn't take a genius to figure out where to get a kid where it hurts most. While I'm not perfect, and neither are they, I think things go pretty well.

[genieguru]

@zardon-
Don't u think its harsh blaming the parents of those "idiots" for the actions of those "idiots"

Parents will have some influence on them,but ultimately it was their decision to go through with such a pathetic act and they knew it was wrong too

But i do agree on the facts that good parenting goes a long way towards what a kid develops into

[kris23]

parents have only so much control over the offspring, once things are out of the parents hands, its all character

[Asmoday]

Originally Posted by kris23

parents have only so much control over the offspring, once things are out of the parents hands, its all character

Yeah, but it's the parents influence over their offspring that has laid the foundation for the character they will have at that point..

[Zardon]

Originally Posted by genieguru

@zardon-
Don't u think its harsh blaming the parents of those "idiots" for the actions of those "idiots"

Not at all. if parents spent more time with their kids and gave them a good clip around the ear society would be in a better state. Problem is, immature and idiotic parents are popping out kids left right and center and they don't want them in the first place so they are left to develop their own sense of morality while being able to watch anything they want on tv. This clearly isn't working.

You might say "bleh, he is talking crap, no one believes what they see on tv". Let me approach it like this. If you see kids watching things like doctor who or the teletubbies they tend to think its more real than older people - i used to think the daleks were real ffs! Young kids are very impressionable. Can you imagine if they are left to watch some 18 cert thrillers or horror movies (and yes it happens).

Obviously this is only a very small part of the problem.... the main issue is that many parents just don't care, and whether you believe it or not, this lack of care is the issue on so many levels.

Either that or we have a lot of inbreeding going on.

[Mousey]

I agree whole-heartedly with Kris' post, and i respect his views because i think they're 100% correct. My parents try to stop me getting hurt all the time by basically denying me my freedom, when i was 12 my parents would demand they know exactly where i go, i carry my phone and would try to impose limits on where i go, However, my friends were going into the City of Leeds and having a whale of a time.

Now i'm 15 i have more freedom, as long as my parents know in advance where and why i'm going i can normally go pretty much wherever i want, i can even get a lift normally which saves bus + train fares :P

These restrictions that have been in place for so many years have had a lot more of a negative effect on me though, i'd say i'm more sensible than most guys my age (especially round here) which is probably why mum and dad have decided to open their eyes and realise i need my freedom, i'm a teenager and i need to start seeing the real world, not the perfect one they wanted me to see. Since they let me out into the world i've changed a lot, a lot of my friends noticed that i've changed as well. One guy in particular that's 23 and does PK with us in keighley + skipton said i've "really come out your shell since i last saw you". By that i'm louder and more confident, i make my opinions heard and things have never been better. I've got a beautiful girlfriend that i love so much, my PK's advancing 10 fold and i'm trying things i wouldn't have dreamed of doing maybe 3/4 months ago.

And while we're on that subject, when my parents found out i was into parkour and i'd been training regularly out on the street they both simulatenously went APE SHIT, ranting and raving, sometimes screaming at me that it was a stupid, dangerous hobby and it would get me killed. However my parents are so short-sighted at times they didn't see the benefits of such a hobby. Before pk i was sat on my computer 7 hours a day on weekdays, and 11 a day on weekends doing nothing.
Now my pk's getting better because i have the freedom i wanted originally in the first place, i can go to jams in keighley and skipton, and i go to a gym in bradford most saturdays with Joe and Chris to work on flips.

I'm not saying that i understand a parent's perspective on this, but i can understand why a parent would be protective but there's a line that MUST be toed.
There's protective, and then there's my parents that try, well, tried. to govern my entire life.
And like Kris said, kids are smarter than they look, we can cover our tracks.
The night i'd done weed, me and my friends all came home high with massive pupils and they still didn't notice anything was different (no idea how).

And i don't suppose most of my points make any sense but heh

[Zardon]

yes of course there is a line to be drawn, but I look at you as a bright young kid with morals and responsbility who is well articulated and capable.

This is partly because your parents have gave a damn. You will appreciate it when you get older, you are too young to understand right now, and I don't mean that as an insult either.

[Vikingod]

And the day you do start to understand your parents, and their actions, it's very humbling. Gives you a new found respect for your parents (as people, not as mom and dad), and makes you feel like a jerk for the shit you gave them over the years.

[Judas]

Kids aren't stupid to begin with..... specially if you keep playing the same card.

it's not hard to pick out the kids that were never properly brought up.... Hell, it takes about a single sentence sometimes to hear exactly what the situation was like. It's very disturbing.

Some people WILL be able to distinguish right from wrong on thier own, it's rare.. but it can happen. no doubt there...

There is also some cases where no finger had to be laid on the kids to teach them a lesson. That's extremely rare.

What's of major interest in the cases where the children have learnt.. and smart enough to keep thier act up around thier parents to turn them into the fake "angel" that the parents like to see ... producing some of the most horrible children that are able to best deseave anyone, pulling some really brutal actions off and hell, getting away with it.

It really doesn't take a genius child at all, to figure out how to calm the parents and make them feel like they've accomplished something..... and then letting the kid do what it wants resulting in another form of an evil child lol.

And it doesn't take long for some of these kids to grow up and when they feel confident..... being the abuser and telling the parents what to do, complete roll reversal.


Also i think freely providing and allowing kids to experience some of the things... such as smoking.. under thier own supervision has a enourmus impact on things..

Nothing has ever occured where you've been instantly addicted to something on the very first partial puff. Not enless you genuinely like it.

Obviously hardcore drugs are not to even be played with... but something like a cigerate won't kill anyone... actually i found it to be a brilliant lesson when my father found that i was interested in what he was doing when i was i beleive 4 or 5 years old... mimicking it outside in the cold air..... He offered it to me, told me to do it right or not at all, big enhale.... spastic coughing and sickens followed... lesson learned.. it wasn't something i was going to enjoy.... that's pretty much an instant stopper right there.

Where as parents are shielding kids from this kind of thing so much that the kids oventually grow up to have a NEED to try it and find out wtf the problem is.. reguardless of what it "may do".... they want to find out for themselves.... and the result can easily be that due to stupid peer pressure..... another smoker is born in the shadows and and behind the backs of the parents.

[kris23]

it seems that Mousey likes what i said but i also need to know what people think on the parental side of things.

[Mousey]

Originally Posted by kris23

it seems that Mousey likes what i said but i also need to know what people think on the parental side of things.

You made some excellent points that i agree with whole-heartedly, if i ever have kids i'd want to be protective, but not paranoid like my parents.
Z and Viking, i understand what your'e saying but my parents imposed so many limits i couldn't even