[MarkFahey]

Hi Everyone,

Here is a question for you tech experts. Can a power supply that is undervolting cause any damage to PC components? If so, what would likely be damaged? CPU, Video Card, Memory, etc? If damage can result then is it possible that a component would still fuction but exibit strange anomiles like graphic or data corruption? Also would it matter how long the system was running with this situation, for example several months or would damage occur within a small amount of time?

The reason I am asking this question is because I just recently found out that my Antec True Power 550 has been running with the +12 and +5 volt rails low. The 12v rail was dipping to 11.855 and the 5v rail was dipping to 4.811.

Thanks!

Mark

[Asmoday]

Is this measured via your bios or a digital multimeter? Not that it matters though, your hardware won't take any damage from that kind of voltage, it's well within the 5% atx limit..
Don't worry...

[H3X4D3C1M4L]

The worst you get is crashing...its like a CPU, undervolting it is fine so long as it doesn't crash, but overvolt it then poof.

[soloz2]

while it's not great for your components undervoltage usually won't cause major problems. underpowering your system if sever enough though, can cause additional unnecessary stress on the sysem as a whole.. plus your computer will not perform like it could. Usually the only side effect of undervolting is random rebooting and fans slowing down.

but you do need to use a multimeter and manually test to know for sure what your voltages are.

[MarkFahey]

Thanks for the great feedback guys!

The reason I am asking this question is that I have been experencing some strange graphics anomiles. The problem I am having is jittery, jerky, ghosting graphics not only happening on my desktop but in games as well. When I scroll through text or images in IE, Firefox, Word, etc... the movement is not smooth and is stuttering/ghosting. As well as when dragging a window across my desktop. It gets worse the faster I increase the movement or scroll. If I move the mouse super slow it is nice and smooth with no jitter but as soon as I start to speed up the movement is starts. It not only happens with the mouse but also with the keyboard arrow keys as well. So it is not mouse related.

It's similar to a Vsync tearing, but the text, image, or window has a blurring effect that is jittering or ghosting while its moving and leaves a bit of itself behind that has to catch up with itself. Where with only a Vsync tear you get the stepping tearing but not the blurring that I am getting. When I'm in a game like BF2 or Americas Army, when I turn with the mouse or strafe with the keyboard objects like trees, edges of buildings, other players, etc are ghosting and jittery where again it takes a second for the image to catch up with itself, like a graphics lag.

I just installed an nVidia eVga 6800 AGP into my ASUS P4C800-E. I am running a P4 2.4b, 2 x Corsair 512M PC3200XL's running in duel channel mode, Audigy 2, 2 x WD 120G 2mb HD's, Antec True Power-II 550W PSU, Dell 2001FP Monitor. Before this nVidia card, I was running an ATI 9700 Pro and was experiencing the same problem with that card. I did a fresh Windows XP SP2 install with this new video card, latest Intel chipset drivers, nVidia drivers and all the latest XP updates. I have also tried several older Forceware drivers.

I also tried running another OS using the Knoppix Linux 4.01 Bootable DVD version and the jitter/ghosting was even happening under Linux. So that definatly rules out any problems with Windows XP. I even moved my rig to a friends house to rule out any EMI interference I might have had at mine.

What's really weird about this issue is that my system used to run great, no graphics jitters and smooth like silk. Even when I had my ATI 9700 Pro in it. Then all of a sudden one day several weeks ago it started having this problem. I thought that it may be graphics card related, and anyway it was about time to upgrade my card so I thought that would fix it.

I have tried my rig on two other different monitors - one was a iiyama 21" CRT and the other was another Dell 2001FP. I have swapped out the Mobo for another Brand New ASUS P4C800-E, I have tried different memory, different sound card, replaced the hard drives, replaced the IDE cables, disconnected all fans and optical drives as well as replacing the PSU with a brand new Antec TP-II 550 that is running very tight on all rails.

The only other thing I haven't replaced in the CPU. Is it possible that the old PSU might have damaged the CPU? Or could an Intel processor all of a sudden start causing issues like this? Have you guys ever heard of an Intel CPU causing this kind of graphical problem?

To this point I guess I have eliminated just about everything I could think of that would cause this problem. This should not be happening, my 2D scrolling and dragging and my 3D movement in games should be smooth without jitters/ghosting. This problem really has me stumped.

[H3X4D3C1M4L]

Sounds like you're cursed You've eliminated essentially everything hardware wise.... it could possibly be a BIOS setting or something you overlooked

[mdblab]

Hi everyone,

i'm experiencing the same problem on my PC:

PSU: 400 watt
CPU: AMD XP 2600 Burton
MB: Gigabyte 7N400 Pro 2 - nforce2
RAM: 2 GB DDR 400 Dual Channel
Video: Ati Radeon 9600 256MB
Monitor: Samsung Syncmaster 753DFX
OS: Windows XP Pro SP2

the description above written by MarkFahey meets perfectly what i'm experiencing during internet browsing, drawing windows and playing 3D videogames; however i have found the followind Frap video made by MarkFahey:

http://media.putfile.com/jitter
[it's a divx compression, so you need to have divx installed on your computer]

in the video you could see the ghosts images that try to catch the realtime frame, you could see it in the house's roof and the closed window as well.

What I have done to fix the problem?
- Upgraded the Mobo Bios with the latest upgrade [FK]
- Optimized the windows interrupt polling by turnin off in the bios:
Serial ports Disabled
Parallel port Disabled
Game port Disabled
Midi port Disabled
Fireware port Disabled
Raid Controller Disabled
- Reinstalled Windows XP Pro SP2 + full windows updates
- Installed the latest drivers for:
nforce 2 chipset [nForce 5.10]
Radeon Omega Drivers 3.8.205
Integrated Realtek Audio Controller [WDM A376a]
Integrated Realtek Network Controller 8110s
Syncmaster 753DFX
- Improved OS performance by:
Disabling Desktop themes and effects.
Unistalling useless software:
MSN Explorer, Outlook express, windows messenger and all the accessories but the calculator.
Disabling all the useless Services running in background.
Radeon Settings to high-performance, AA Disabled, AI disabled, Vsync Enabled.
Setting desktop resolution to 1024x768 16bit 85Hz

Well the system looks fast and stable, running 17 processes with 110 MB of allocated memory, however the problem stand still.


Voltages and Temperatures:[Using Gigabyte Easytune Monitor]
VCoreA: +1.660
+3.3v: +3.280
+5v: +4.990
+12v: +12.040
System Temp: 37C
CPU Temp: 56C

I have used another PSU to test, no changes.
I have installed an old radeon 9000, no changes.

Some common voices looks missed inside the Bios, I can't find the option to set the AGP Aperture Size, Shadow System Bios and System Bios Cacheable.

[MarkFahey]

Hi mdblab,

Well at least i'm not the only crazy one! I thought I may be the only person having this problem and unable to fix it. I see you found my video from another forum so it looks like you have, like myself been searching for an answer to this mystery.

I am still experiencing this issue, I have as of writing this replaced every component in my rig with the exception on the case itself. I really wish we could find some sort of answer here? This has to be the single most frusting problem I have come across with working and building PC's in the past 15 years!

I'm going to keep searching for an answer, so lets keep eachother posted if we find a resolution to this. My email is goflyakite@hotmail.com

[mdblab]

Hi MarkFahey,

I think the problem is located between CPU, Motherboard and the AGP, but i can't get a focus where it's.

However i think that it's a really common problem and not rare, peoples just think that the newest Videocard will solve all the problems, personally i think that there isn't a reason to put features like Antiliasing, Smoothvision and other charms while the stability of the image is not guaranteed.
I'm not able to find a difference between AA on or disable due to the ghostes.

Today[or better yesterday cause it's 3:30 am here] i went in a computer shop to check the performance of other machines; well i just checked 4 pc with winxp and a 1 notebook, all of them have the jitter problem.

I will check tomorrow with another cpu and more tests.

I have launched 3dMark2001 where i got an ugly result:
5800 with Vsync on
9200 with Vsync off

However i need to check better:
Revision: 3.0
Rate: 4x, 8x (8x enabled)
Aperture Size: 0 bytes <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<???
Sideband Addressing: supported (enabled)
Fast Write: supported (enabled)

[mdblab]

Update:

I have tested 3 more Machines with different Motherboards, different VideoCards[9800proATI/6600GForce], with a 450w PSU and with different monitors; also there i could recognize the jitter issue in both 2D and 3D applications.

I have installed the newest drivers/software for the Logitech Mouse[USB] and the Microsoft Keyboard[PS2] without get an improve.

I have checked the Bios all the PCs, and in all of them the common key AGP Aperture Size is missed.

Well, a previous Mark's test describe that the issue shows itself also running under Linux, He used the Knoppix Linux 4.01 Bootable DVD version to run the test, each OS in both[Windows/Linux] should manage their setting in accord to the Bios, so I think the jitter problem have its focus inside the Bios, that it have to manage the IRQs under an ACPI system.
I will try to install a Linux version in a 3rd drive, i have tested this issue a lot under windows xp and i need to be sure also there with a different OS.

Next step will be a complete test of both Windows and Linux using PS2 Keyboard and Mouse, disabling the USB ports.

After this, I think that i should have enought data to write down a report that i will forward to Gigabyte, that is the Manufacter of the Mainboard.
I will also hold in mind that also an ASUS motherboard shows that behawior as well[Mark's Motherboard was an ASUS P4C800-E]

[H3X4D3C1M4L]

Maybe its the USB polling frequency ?

[mdblab]

Originally Posted by H3X4D3C1M4L

Maybe its the USB polling frequency ?

I have used DH TuneXP 1.5 to set the USB polling frequency, no changes.

[mdblab]

Update:

I have tested more other PCs in the vicinity of my home, in a Internet Point I have recognized the problem in all the machines, that they have differents configurations of course, at this time i have to free my mind about hardware and software issues, i can't put aside the possibility that an EMI interference works in all along the valley where i live.

My house is located in a river valley surronded by hills in Both North and South, on each hill there is a mobile phone antenna, and i know that there are at least 2 Wi-fi Users.

I have showed the problem to a person that lives more then 10 miles from here, he never had this problem at all, his house is located close the city's hospital, so i guess that area should be cleaned from EMI interferences.

I have an older version of Linux that not support the nforce2 chipset, so i need to get an Upgraded version to run this test, I should get it in the next Monday.

I will try to cover all of my peripherals with lead-paper and connect it to ground, i hope to find something that drives me to the solution of this orrible problem.

Any Tips about Electronic Shielding against EMI interferences are welcome of course.

[Txnhockey]

i think i am having the same problem. i recently more than double all hardware. i got pissed because my game was running worse than before!. First thing you do? i checked my drivers, all good there. Check game settings, no difference. Talked to a friend... might be undersupply power. I have some old PSU with only 10Amps on the +12 Rail. Said the Vid and 300gig HD was sucking too much energy. I had this almost lag type symptom. Check my rates in my H-L mod... fine.. 16-30 ping. good. Net_graph 3 - fine on frame rate (around 40-80) and almost no loss or choke over my 11mb wireless. I thought it might have been hardware lag but i doubted it. It IS probably my PSU - but being a 13year old i probably will not be able to replace it since the one my college buddy liked was over 100$ : /

[H3X4D3C1M4L]

You can get decent PSU's for less I think.

Enermax Liberty's are astoundingly good deals

[Txnhockey]

okay i made that post last night. this afternoon i tried my computer - it

would not run in standard mode. I run it in safe mode. check my rad
linker- its running at 0 clock. i run another systems tool and it says power supply is offline - although it is obviously getting power since its on. my dad stumbles onto me trying to fix it and starts blaming the last thing i installed -rad-linker. He eventually, after explaining it couldn't be some monitor cause this much trouble we pull the vid card out - and it works. i have a 10a 12 rail and he doesn't think yet its the psu.

I'm worried my computer will fry. trying to get it through his head that 300watts is

1. not the way to measure power (to a good level)
and 2. that vid cards and HDs are sucking more energy

i will go to frys tomorrow. cant get anything online. any ideas of what i should look for what to look for?

[H3X4D3C1M4L]

Brand names are a good thing to look for, something you can recognize. Stick to...

-Enermax
-Antec
-OCZ

Things like that. Avoid...

-Dynex
-JaPower
-Ultra Tawianese Brute

You get the picture....

You should also look at the box and determine the amperages. Most PSU's are at least 18 volts on the +12 side.

[Txnhockey]

Originally Posted by H3X4D3C1M4L

Brand names are a good thing to look for, something you can recognize. Stick to...

-Enermax
-Antec
-OCZ

Things like that. Avoid...

-Dynex
-JaPower
-Ultra Tawianese Brute

You get the picture....

You should also look at the box and determine the amperages. Most PSU's are at least 18 volts on the +12 side.

yeah i know alot of people think the wattage is the only thing. i found this
http://shop4.outpost.com/product/465...H:MAIN_RSLT_PG

3 12 rails.. 80bucks .. looks good

im oging to frys tomrw. see what to get.

[H3X4D3C1M4L]

Looks like you picked a good one, that Antec Neo Good spot

[Txnhockey]

Originally Posted by H3X4D3C1M4L

Looks like you picked a good one, that Antec Neo Good spot

yes and lukily Frys had it. I saw it and i had to convince my dad to get the 430 over the 380.... 20bucks more. 80bucks is not bad for ateleast 3 good years.

now more "mysterious lag" and i run at 50fps, all the time at least 20 fps better. and windows works!

[H3X4D3C1M4L]

Well then, we can close the books on this one

[mdblab]

Update:

- I have done some tests with my house electronic system, about the ground connection effectiveness, everything works well.
- I moved my PC in several locations inside my house, no changes.
- I have unplugged any cordless phones and the base station, no changes.
- I have tried my PC without the ground connection, no changes.
- I have unplugged the Battery Back-up and AC filtering system, no changes.
- I have covered the keyboard, Mouse, Monitor and the PC with alluminium paper connected to ground, no changes.
- I have tested the Bios function 'AGP/CPU Spread Spectrum', no changes.
- Finally i have located the 'AGP Aperture Size' in the Bios, but values from 32MB to 512MB didn't make a difference.
- I have disabled the Bios function 'CPU Temperature Throttle', no changes.
- I have tested a new PC with an AMD 4400 Dual Core CPU, same trouble here.
- I have installed the 'Mandriva Linux 2006 Powerpack' in a new Hard drive, same deal with a different OS.

End of tests:
The origin of that jitter couldn't be located in both Hardware and Software inside my PC; there is a railway in the vicinity but i think it provide only DC interferences, such as colours and image distortion.
AC interferences in this area could be provided by:

- National Energy Provider.
[I can't locate an High Voltage cable that pass near my house, there are some industries in the vicinity.]

- Amateur radio operators.
[No clue about them.]

- Radio/TV broadcast station antenna.
[All the Tv channels are affected by image noises, in the last night some channels completely disappeared under interferences, the weather conditions were fine.]

- Wifi Networks.
[Hard to think they makes trouble to a PC.]

- Cellular phones base station antennas.
[Same deal as above, however my home is located in a low density population zone, far away from the telecomunications controls.]

------------

Well, in the next days i will try to find some 'cleaned' areas where i could test my PC, i will move inside the city with an high population density.
I will send all the data about tests that I have done to : ATI, Nvidia, Gigabyte and AMD, and i will wait for a feedback from them, I could have missed something.
I will try to understand the location not affected; I'm not able to manage this trouble by myself so i will ask for a government authorities control.

[Txnhockey]

interesting notion. i remember from awhile ago that you can or could build a device that measured the electronic emissions coming from your screen, which could therefor be read and re-displayed. When my brother turns the TV on behind me (about 9 feet away) There is a sound and large jitter like when the screen changes to a new resolution, but returns to normal. And mdblab u might have slightly committed over kill with the tin foil and all.......