Gamers, stop holding back my games

ET3D · Oct 11, 2009, 04:01 PM

I just posted a new post on my rarely update blog: ET - Gamers, stop holding back my games

Figured it'd be a good discussion starter. (Though I never know which forum to pick.)

IvanV · Oct 11, 2009, 04:27 PM

EDIT: Sorry, haven't read the post carefully.

Windows doesn't come cheap. Also, 7 isn't out yet, and Vista has been ruined by bad journalists and the fact that anyone can post any sort of nonsense on the Internet and have millions read it (and people often tend to believe bad rumors more easily than good ones). Add to it the laziness of developers who either make straight ports from consoles or, even when developing primarily for the PC and support DX10, often fail to put in enough effort into it to make the DX10 version look significantly better than DX9, although it may perform much worse (example: World in Conflict) and you have consumers that are very poorly motivated to switch to new operating systems. If MS made DX10 for XP (I've got no idea how difficult or easy that may be), DX10 would have become present on a much greater number of computers, though I'm not 100% sure that it would have changed the situation too much as there are several contributing factors to the current situation, not least importantly lack of effort from the developers.

ET3D · Oct 12, 2009, 02:06 AM

My point was that the perceived "lack of effort from the developers" is the result of writing to the market. If you write for DX9 and port to DX10, the DX10 port will have performance problems, because of the difference between the API's. It's a catch 22 situation, and one solution would be for gamers to go for a better platform that'd make it easier for the developers to give them the good looking, better performing DX10 and DX11 games. I deliberately didn't want to place blame anywhere, just wanted to give gamers another viewpoint that could allow them to break the cycle.

IvanV · Oct 12, 2009, 10:05 AM

I understood that, but I think they ought to have tried harder to motivate gamers to embrace the new technology. If people were able to install DX10 to XP like they could with all previous versions, it would have been a painless transition for the consumer, but DX10's being Vista only meant that gamers had to switch to an OS that kills babies and makes you impotent, or so people were told. Being a gamer and owning a good PC doesn't, and needn't, make one a computer expert or too adventurous, so it's not too strange that majority of them accepted what they'd heard from all sides and required a bit of extra incentive to switch to that "monstrosity of an operating system" and I believe that developers ought to have realized that.

It's not like it wouldn't have payed off for them either, people have the hardware and eye candy was always a good selling point and a few good games which showcased what DX10 hardware was really capable of could have turned the tide, but they never arrived. Instead, we got things like World in Conflict, which looked marginally better and performed much worse in DX10, and Crysis, which looked stunning but dragged it's feet even at 1280*800 and on the most powerful hardware of the time, plus it was possible to unlock most of the "DX10 only" eye candy through some ini file tweaks. All that made people believe that DX10 itself was unnecessary, probably even bad, and definitely not worth having to switch to a new OS and deal with it's "crappines". And then, just as all the hardware in the market as well as pretty much all up to date software became Vista capable and compatible and situation was finally ripe for a wider adoption to start taking place, 7 was announced as the best thing since sliced bread and people decided to hold on to XP until it came out rather than make two OS switches in a short time (which is fairly reasonable, especially since one of them was the most bad-mouthed version of Windows ever).

Therefore, while I am stunned by how many people with perfectly capable hardware are still "behind the curve" on the software side, I can't really put the majority of blame for poor adoption of DX10 on the consumers.

ET3D · Oct 12, 2009, 12:23 PM

Well, hopefully Windows 7 will have most people move from XP.

As I said, I didn't mean to place blame. I meant to say that at this point in time, when options are opening, I'd rather that people do move to Windows 7 and to DX11 hardware, and not perpetuate the cycle.

ET3D · Oct 12, 2009, 12:25 PM

BTW, I agree that Microsoft helped create the problem, but that's one thing that neither consumers nor game developers can control. Hopefully with Windows 7 that issue will be gone (and at least they learned from the mistake and made DX11 backward compatible).

Cow_160483 · Oct 13, 2009, 04:31 AM

Here is to hoping ET3D. and by the way IvanV your insight is absolutely spot on

ET3D · Oct 15, 2009, 05:14 PM

One of the things people don't realise is how different Xbox and PC DX9 development is, even if the graphics capabilities are the same. That's why a straight port from the console can result in bad performance even on a lot faster PC hardware. Hopefully with DX11 on the PC side ports will get a little better.

***Zardon*** · Oct 15, 2009, 05:25 PM

very good read ET3D. some valid points too.

BlueMak · Oct 15, 2009, 07:58 PM

The page doesn't load for me.

ET3D · Oct 16, 2009, 02:14 AM

I fixed the link.

BlueMak · Oct 16, 2009, 07:08 AM

Thanks, now, to comment on your article.

The vast majority of gamers can't just jump to DX11 hardware, unless someone else pays for it.
I think you are not taking the hardware part for how important it is. Sure, many of the gamers have DX10 cards, but they also have single core and low level dual core CPUs (and the system that goes with them) and they would not experience anything better by moving to Vista or Windows 7 since they would have to lower details or whatever, to enjoy their game at the same speed, but reduced looks, than they would at XP.
We are not talking about "you and me" that has a fairly modern system, but of all the rest that have 1-2GB of RAM, an entry to mid level of graphics card (at best DX10 capable), and single core or a low performance (either due to when it was bought or the model) dual core cpu.
When you don't have a fast enough system, every single frame per second counts and if they see that in game X under Vista they will get 28fps and under XP 26, then they will say no. Yes, just one or two frames are enough, some people are like that.

Then there are the millions and millions of gamers who do not want to play the latest Prysis and really do want to play Sims and WoW, etc. Since they will have to pay out of their own money for any upgrades/new system/new OS, and since what they have now IS good enough for what they want, how are you going to convince them that they need to upgrade (meaning spend money) any of the above, so that the people who make money out of creating games can have an easier time, so that the gamers can give their money to the same people?

Basically, I can see your points and I like some of them, but I believe things are a bit more complicated.

SeraphicSorcerer · Oct 16, 2009, 07:28 AM

@ ET3d, I liked your article and it makes valid points, but I also think you're forgetting consoles have a sway because of the fact that it also is seen (wrongly mind you, imo) that they're a lot less prone to piracy. While The Xbox does have a DX 10 style featureset, I do believe that is why you've seen an uptick in DX 10 games (Crysis for example), Your WinXP point is valid however you can also blame Microsoft for being greedy, which of course is their right. Piracy I think is why we honestly have seen a decline more then Vista/Win 7.

OmegaRED · Oct 16, 2009, 08:23 AM

The bad journalism that convinced sheep to avoid Vista will also convince the same sheep Windows 7 is amazing; within a year or two I think XP will be all but gone and PC gaming can move forward.

SeraphicSorcerer · Oct 16, 2009, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

The bad journalism that convinced sheep to avoid Vista will also convince the same sheep Windows 7 is amazing; within a year or two I think XP will be all but gone and PC gaming can move forward.

It won't be all gone, It'll be Virtual inside Windows 7 I'm afraid... hahaha.

BlueMak · Oct 16, 2009, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

The bad journalism that convinced sheep to avoid Vista will also convince the same sheep Windows 7 is amazing; within a year or two I think XP will be all but gone and PC gaming can move forward.

I couldn't have said it better.

OmegaRED · Oct 16, 2009, 10:40 AM

Us geeks know the truth:

Vista unfortunately came out in 2006 when Ram was expensive, 4gb was only for the gamers with deep pockets. Quad Cores are not available for another year. It runs like crap for most people. 3 years later the same hardware is cheap and standard for new computers. Vista of course runs perfectly.

Us geeks need to take this one for the team, let evil Vista be buried and spit on once it's in the grave so the twin brother Win7 can take its place. Maybe, just maybe that could mean more PC games with DX11 effects

MitchRapp · Oct 19, 2009, 05:36 PM

Gaming on Vista x64 was just great ... I had zero complaints, because I had ZERO issues with games.
Windows 7 so far is pretty much the same.

real "vista complainers" never actually used Vista, but just read the reviews of online people who tried running vista on a Pentium 3 Centrino with 128mb ram

ET3D · Oct 20, 2009, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueMak

Thanks, now, to comment on your article.

The vast majority of gamers can't just jump to DX11 hardware, unless someone else pays for it.
...
We are not talking about "you and me" that has a fairly modern system

I was talking about "you and me". People who play AAA games are normally people who have the hardware for them. Might be just a $100 card and not $400, but they don't normally buy $40 cards, and they do actively select what they buy.

I'm not telling people to rush to buy cards now, but a lot are buying now, and will in the next months, and my point is that these people will do better to buy a DX11 card even if non-DX11 cards give a little better performance for the same price.

BlueMak · Oct 20, 2009, 06:11 AM

I agree with that.

Oct 11, 2009, 04:01 PM	#1
ET3D Hopeless Dreamer Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Dreamland, near the pool of infinite graphics cards Posts: 2,524 Rep Power: 59 System Specs	Gamers, stop holding back my games I just posted a new post on my rarely update blog: ET - Gamers, stop holding back my games Figured it'd be a good discussion starter. (Though I never know which forum to pick.) Last edited by ET3D; Oct 16, 2009 at 02:13 AM.

Oct 11, 2009, 04:27 PM	#2
IvanV DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,143 Rep Power: 64 System Specs	Re: Gamers, stop holding back my games EDIT: Sorry, haven't read the post carefully. Windows doesn't come cheap. Also, 7 isn't out yet, and Vista has been ruined by bad journalists and the fact that anyone can post any sort of nonsense on the Internet and have millions read it (and people often tend to believe bad rumors more easily than good ones). Add to it the laziness of developers who either make straight ports from consoles or, even when developing primarily for the PC and support DX10, often fail to put in enough effort into it to make the DX10 version look significantly better than DX9, although it may perform much worse (example: World in Conflict) and you have consumers that are very poorly motivated to switch to new operating systems. If MS made DX10 for XP (I've got no idea how difficult or easy that may be), DX10 would have become present on a much greater number of computers, though I'm not 100% sure that it would have changed the situation too much as there are several contributing factors to the current situation, not least importantly lack of effort from the developers. __________________ Feed the porkers and don't touch the buttons! Last edited by IvanV; Oct 11, 2009 at 04:41 PM.

Oct 12, 2009, 02:06 AM	#3
ET3D Hopeless Dreamer Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Dreamland, near the pool of infinite graphics cards Posts: 2,524 Rep Power: 59 System Specs	Re: Gamers, stop holding back my games My point was that the perceived "lack of effort from the developers" is the result of writing to the market. If you write for DX9 and port to DX10, the DX10 port will have performance problems, because of the difference between the API's. It's a catch 22 situation, and one solution would be for gamers to go for a better platform that'd make it easier for the developers to give them the good looking, better performing DX10 and DX11 games. I deliberately didn't want to place blame anywhere, just wanted to give gamers another viewpoint that could allow them to break the cycle.

Oct 12, 2009, 10:05 AM	#4
IvanV DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,143 Rep Power: 64 System Specs	Re: Gamers, stop holding back my games I understood that, but I think they ought to have tried harder to motivate gamers to embrace the new technology. If people were able to install DX10 to XP like they could with all previous versions, it would have been a painless transition for the consumer, but DX10's being Vista only meant that gamers had to switch to an OS that kills babies and makes you impotent, or so people were told. Being a gamer and owning a good PC doesn't, and needn't, make one a computer expert or too adventurous, so it's not too strange that majority of them accepted what they'd heard from all sides and required a bit of extra incentive to switch to that "monstrosity of an operating system" and I believe that developers ought to have realized that. It's not like it wouldn't have payed off for them either, people have the hardware and eye candy was always a good selling point and a few good games which showcased what DX10 hardware was really capable of could have turned the tide, but they never arrived. Instead, we got things like World in Conflict, which looked marginally better and performed much worse in DX10, and Crysis, which looked stunning but dragged it's feet even at 1280800 and on the most powerful hardware of the time, plus it was possible to unlock most of the "DX10 only" eye candy through some ini file tweaks. All that made people believe that DX10 itself was unnecessary, probably even bad, and definitely not worth having to switch to a new OS and deal with it's "crappines". And then, just as all the hardware in the market as well as pretty much all up to date software became Vista capable and compatible and situation was finally ripe for a wider adoption to start taking place, 7 was announced as the best thing since sliced bread and people decided to hold on to XP until it came out rather than make two OS switches in a short time (which is fairly reasonable, especially since one of them was the most bad-mouthed version of Windows ever). Therefore, while I am stunned by how many people with perfectly capable hardware are still "behind the curve" on the software side, I can't really put the majority of blame for poor adoption of DX10 on the consumers. __________________ Feed the porkers and don't touch the buttons! Last edited by IvanV; Oct 12, 2009 at 10:15 AM.*

Oct 12, 2009, 12:23 PM	#5
ET3D Hopeless Dreamer Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Dreamland, near the pool of infinite graphics cards Posts: 2,524 Rep Power: 59 System Specs	Re: Gamers, stop holding back my games Well, hopefully Windows 7 will have most people move from XP. As I said, I didn't mean to place blame. I meant to say that at this point in time, when options are opening, I'd rather that people do move to Windows 7 and to DX11 hardware, and not perpetuate the cycle.

Oct 12, 2009, 12:25 PM	#6
ET3D Hopeless Dreamer Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Dreamland, near the pool of infinite graphics cards Posts: 2,524 Rep Power: 59 System Specs	Re: Gamers, stop holding back my games BTW, I agree that Microsoft helped create the problem, but that's one thing that neither consumers nor game developers can control. Hopefully with Windows 7 that issue will be gone (and at least they learned from the mistake and made DX11 backward compatible).

Oct 13, 2009, 04:31 AM	#7
Cow_160483 DH's only cow moooooo... Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: BOTSWANA Posts: 3,830 Rep Power: 96 System Specs	Re: Gamers, stop holding back my games Here is to hoping ET3D. and by the way IvanV your insight is absolutely spot on __________________ Decode! Muhahahahah!

Oct 15, 2009, 05:14 PM	#8
ET3D Hopeless Dreamer Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Dreamland, near the pool of infinite graphics cards Posts: 2,524 Rep Power: 59 System Specs	Re: Gamers, stop holding back my games One of the things people don't realise is how different Xbox and PC DX9 development is, even if the graphics capabilities are the same. That's why a straight port from the console can result in bad performance even on a lot faster PC hardware. Hopefully with DX11 on the PC side ports will get a little better.

Oct 15, 2009, 05:25 PM	#9
*Zardon* enchanted Join Date: May 2002 Location: Driverheaven Posts: 32,262 Rep Power: 3150	Re: Gamers, stop holding back my games very good read ET3D. some valid points too.

Oct 15, 2009, 07:58 PM	#10
BlueMak DH's Asteroids' Dominator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Hellas->Macedonia->Thessaloniki Posts: 8,250 Rep Power: 118 System Specs	Re: Gamers, stop holding back my games The page doesn't load for me. __________________ The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm *Sic semper tyrannis.*

Oct 16, 2009, 02:14 AM	#11
ET3D Hopeless Dreamer Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Dreamland, near the pool of infinite graphics cards Posts: 2,524 Rep Power: 59 System Specs	Re: Gamers, stop holding back my games I fixed the link.

Oct 16, 2009, 07:08 AM	#12
BlueMak DH's Asteroids' Dominator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Hellas->Macedonia->Thessaloniki Posts: 8,250 Rep Power: 118 System Specs	Re: Gamers, stop holding back my games Thanks, now, to comment on your article. The vast majority of gamers can't just jump to DX11 hardware, unless someone else pays for it. I think you are not taking the hardware part for how important it is. Sure, many of the gamers have DX10 cards, but they also have single core and low level dual core CPUs (and the system that goes with them) and they would not experience anything better by moving to Vista or Windows 7 since they would have to lower details or whatever, to enjoy their game at the same speed, but reduced looks, than they would at XP. We are not talking about "you and me" that has a fairly modern system, but of all the rest that have 1-2GB of RAM, an entry to mid level of graphics card (at best DX10 capable), and single core or a low performance (either due to when it was bought or the model) dual core cpu. When you don't have a fast enough system, every single frame per second counts and if they see that in game X under Vista they will get 28fps and under XP 26, then they will say no. Yes, just one or two frames are enough, some people are like that. Then there are the millions and millions of gamers who do not want to play the latest Prysis and really do want to play Sims and WoW, etc. Since they will have to pay out of their own money for any upgrades/new system/new OS, and since what they have now IS good enough for what they want, how are you going to convince them that they need to upgrade (meaning spend money) any of the above, so that the people who make money out of creating games can have an easier time, so that the gamers can give their money to the same people? Basically, I can see your points and I like some of them, but I believe things are a bit more complicated. __________________ The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm *Sic semper tyrannis.*

Oct 16, 2009, 07:28 AM	#13
SeraphicSorcerer Driverheaven's Sorcerer Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 1,136 Rep Power: 74 System Specs	Re: Gamers, stop holding back my games @ ET3d, I liked your article and it makes valid points, but I also think you're forgetting consoles have a sway because of the fact that it also is seen (wrongly mind you, imo) that they're a lot less prone to piracy. While The Xbox does have a DX 10 style featureset, I do believe that is why you've seen an uptick in DX 10 games (Crysis for example), Your WinXP point is valid however you can also blame Microsoft for being greedy, which of course is their right. Piracy I think is why we honestly have seen a decline more then Vista/Win 7. __________________

Oct 16, 2009, 08:23 AM	#14
OmegaRED In Fedor We Trust Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Ottawa , Canada Posts: 4,788 Rep Power: 85 System Specs	Re: Gamers, stop holding back my games The bad journalism that convinced sheep to avoid Vista will also convince the same sheep Windows 7 is amazing; within a year or two I think XP will be all but gone and PC gaming can move forward. __________________

Oct 16, 2009, 10:40 AM	#17
OmegaRED In Fedor We Trust Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Ottawa , Canada Posts: 4,788 Rep Power: 85 System Specs	Re: Gamers, stop holding back my games Us geeks know the truth: Vista unfortunately came out in 2006 when Ram was expensive, 4gb was only for the gamers with deep pockets. Quad Cores are not available for another year. It runs like crap for most people. 3 years later the same hardware is cheap and standard for new computers. Vista of course runs perfectly. Us geeks need to take this one for the team, let evil Vista be buried and spit on once it's in the grave so the twin brother Win7 can take its place. Maybe, just maybe that could mean more PC games with DX11 effects __________________

Oct 19, 2009, 05:36 PM	#18
MitchRapp a.k.a. pepiman Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Montreal Posts: 905 Rep Power: 35 System Specs	Re: Gamers, stop holding back my games Gaming on Vista x64 was just great ... I had zero complaints, because I had ZERO issues with games. Windows 7 so far is pretty much the same. real "vista complainers" never actually used Vista, but just read the reviews of online people who tried running vista on a Pentium 3 Centrino with 128mb ram

Oct 20, 2009, 06:11 AM	#20
BlueMak DH's Asteroids' Dominator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Hellas->Macedonia->Thessaloniki Posts: 8,250 Rep Power: 118 System Specs	Re: Gamers, stop holding back my games I agree with that. __________________ The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm *Sic semper tyrannis.*