onlyoneman

OK, so this is the deal:
About 10 years ago i knew something about PCs. As I look around trying to decide what hardware I should use to build my first PC in about 7 years, I find that i really dont know much of anything any more. Everything is so different.
I tried to figure these things out by reading stuff but information that i can use seems to be hard to find short of reading stuff i already know, over and over again, (because all the articles say the same thing) for hours and only uncovering miniscule pieces of information that i can actually use.
SO..im going to ask a series of questions that i have not been able to find anything about, and if you fine fellows would be so kind as to either direct me to a source of information relating to the individual topics, or simply post the answers i would be eternally greatfull.

I understand the difference between SLI and Crossfire...but why would you pick SLI for gaming? The choice seems obvious...Crossfire is superior for gaming applications. Whats the catch?

When i build a system for XFire do i have to have a Xfire ready board like with SLI? Or can i just pop in the two Xfire cards and hook up the link cable and call it done?

is PCIe 2.0 a different interface than reg PCIe?

can an AGP card be linked with a PCI or PCIe card in Xfire applications?

Someone told me that if i run all AMD/ATI components i can turn a 16 bit card in to 32bit, and 32bit in to 64bit...ect. Is that only with specific mobo/CPU combos and cards or is that just true in general?

ok i still have more but im going to see how you guys respond to my first batch of questions before i post any more

P.S. Please dont start flaming me for being a n00b if youre a Nvidia fanboy, and dont like what i said about SLI (or for anything else for that matter)..what i said SEEMS obvious to me. If im wrong, please tell me so. Im here to learn, not to be ridiculed.

CDsDontBurn

Ok, to best answer your questions:

1. SLI and x-fire are, as you already know, multi-GPU configurations by both green parties (ATI turned from red to green when AMD bought out ATI ). It is often argued that ATI cards give better IQ (Image Quality) over NVIDIA cards, but that NVIDIA cards give better frame rates. However, with the current high end generation of video cards, GTX280 from NVIDIA and hd4870x2 by ATI/AMD, the ATI/AMD cards seem to be holding on to the IQ and performance crowns right now, but they are also about $150 more expensive usually. so, with that said, it comes down to a performance to price ratio that you'd be talking about.

2. Yes, you need to use an x-fire ready board. these are currently anything Intel x38, x48, and the recently (like monday of this current week recently) released x58 chipset motherboards. not to mention any AMD based chipset motherboards as well . and *supposedly* you can also use x-fire on an NVIDIA motherboard with SLI support, but i myself haven't tested that or heard of anybody testing that. it's just what i heard in the rumor mill .

3. the physical interface is identical to PCI-E 1.0, 1.1, and 1.1a. the real big difference is that it has 5GB/s data bandwidth instead of 2.5GB/s bandwidth. although these speeds have not yet been taken advantage of, the technology is already in place.

4. no. if you have a board that has both AGP and PCI-E, then you're running some kind of budget machine and you wouldn't use it for gaming

5. huh? either i'm mis understanding this here, or this isn't worded correctly.

so, what's the next round of questions?

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Neshi

last point isn't true. You can't turn an apple into a pear just because you have several oranges in your fruitbasket...

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If one does not attach himself to people and desire, never shall his heart be broken. But then, does he ever truly live?

The only guarantee in life is failure, to achieve success you have to take risks.

onlyoneman

He called it "Pure Spider", and he said that if you build a system this way, your 16bit graphics cards can run at 32bit (i dont know what to call the bit specification)
...i did word that poorly. Sorry for that.

in any case, with the answers you provided, it looks like the beginnings of the rig i started planning out were on point...i just have no idea how to choose a PSU. Which brings us to my next most pressing question.

--What do i take in to consideration when deciding what PSU to buy?

...maybe ill win grand prize in that contest and not have to worry about all of this hahahahaha

OldBuzzard

I think he was confusing 8 and 16 bit with PCIe x8 and x16.

The "spider platform" uses the 7series AMD chipsets. With the higher end ones they can have 4 PCIe slots, and you can have up to 4 cards in crossfire.

Now on most boards, like my Asrock for instance, if you have ONE card installed it will run at x16. If I put a second one in, they will both run at x8. Try comparing that to AGP 4x and AGP 8x if it helps you understand better.

With the Spiders, if one or two cards are installed, the slots work at x16. If a third video card is installed, the first slot will remain working at x16, but the other two slots will work at x8. And if you install four video cards all slots will work at x8.

I think that's where he got confused.

Simple. ANY Corsair PSU that has enough watts/amps for the hardware. If you are going to crossfire a pair of SINGLE GPU cards, or run a single X2 card like the 3780 X2 and it's newer brothers then the 620HX would be a very good choice. I'm using that with my 3870 X2.

If you are going to use more than 2 cards, or crossfiring X2s, then you probably would want the 750TX, or 1000HX. Corsair's HX series PSUs are all modular while the TX and VX series are 'tratitional' hardwired.

Corsair hasn't been in the PSU business for all that long, but they have done it right, and ALL of their PSUs are right at the top of their respective classes. There are other PSUs out there that are just as good. The problem with finding them is that most of the other makers have some 'duds' in their linups, and you have to be careful of which one to get if you want quality.

The other thing to consider is the AMPS on the v12 rail(s). The newer vid cards need a LOT of AMPS on the v12, and if the PSU can't supply them it's worthless, no matter what wattage it's rated at. A 450W PSU with 33A on the v12 can run a system that a 600W one with only 16A on the v12 wouldn't be able to handle.

Whatever brand of PSU you get. DO NOT SKIMP ON QUALITY! The PSU is the most important part of your system. A cheap, low quality one WILL fail and when it does it can, and most likely will, destroy other components in your system.

Edit:

I posted this some time back. Good illustration of why you want a quality PSU

Welcome to Corsair :: Corsair Cinema

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When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

CDsDontBurn

like OldBuzzard said, get a QUALITY power supply. he specifically pointed out Corsair, but you're not limited to just them. A few PSU manufacturers that in my books good quality PSUs are: PC Power & Cooling, Enermax, OCZ, Corsair, SilverStone, CoolerMaster, SeaSonic, and Thermaltake

andj ust like OldBuzzard said, you need to consider the +12v rail(s). I personally prefer to have a PSU with a single rail as you don't have to worry about how power distribution is going to be across all the different rails. If you can't find a power supply with a single +12v rail, then a power supply with the least amount of +12v rails would suffice.

a rule of thumb i like to use for a PSU is what i like to call, "the weight test." Basically, a good quality PSU will be significantly heavier than it's low quality counter part. like for examle, i just built my mom a computer and i put in a 300w SilverStone PSU, and i was expecting it to be a little flimsy POS. but when i picked it up, it felt very sturdy and it was quite heavy too. i was very surprised at how heavy that little 300w SilverStone PSU was as most 300w PSUs that i've picked up are rather light.

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onlyoneman

HAHAHAHAHA...sold.

I just kind of assumed that I could run TOO MANY amps...but reading the (much appreciated) feedback that you guys left, that doesn't seem to be the case?

With 'quality : cost' in mind, what do you guys think of what I have so far?
I'm only going with one graphics card at the moment. I'll worry about another one just like this one later, when I have more money to throw around.

Graphics Saphire Radeon HD 4870
Memory Patrion Viper 4G
Mobo JetWay HA04-Extreme
CPU AMD Athlon 64 X2 5200
PSU CORSAIR 520HX 520W
Hard Drive Seagate Barracuda 250GB

kris23

yea, theres no such thing as too many amps man

heres a bit of information to chew on while you decide on what to do...


http://www.driverheaven.net/hardware...lick-here.html

i updated this list to include two setups with Core i7, its not complete as the $1750 models and up havent been updated

the i7 setups are nice but the PSU doesnt allow very much expansion, my recommendation is the Corsair 750TX or Cooler Master Ultimate series

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Judas

you CAN however underload a psu causing problems.....

just a fyi...

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kris23

possible but thats unlikely.....

sure if you load a PSU to less than 20% capacity efficiency is lost but to make a load so small that it fails to run properly is rare unless you run a HDD of a 600w PSU or something....

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onlyoneman

Thats a really nice thread, Kris. I wish i had seen it earlier!

kris23

thanks for the compliment! at this point in time, i recommend the Core i7 as its the new standard of the market.

$1250 isnt much considering it is all top end stuff.... of course you can swap out components to better suit your needs. in the end, memory capacity and bandwidth are far more important than Mhz or latencies so if you need to get cheaper DDR3, you can without losing too much performance.

so what is your budget oneman?

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Liqourice

If you're going AMD, don't get that X2 5200. I've had one, it was good 2 years ago but not anymore, and it's not very overclockable. I only managed to OC mine with 10%...

onlyoneman

That explains the good price...I want something multi core but I don't want to spend a bundle. Any suggestions?

CDsDontBurn

that doesn't really give us a numerical figure. because by what you have just stated, that can vary from person to person.

for me, a "good price" and not "spend a bundle" is around $2,000 for a new rig. for some, that's a bundle. and for others it's low-balling it

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Judas

just for the motherboard and cpu and 3x1gb sticks of ddr3 for the intel core i7 setup.. is instantly nearly 1000 bucks for the lower end spectrum.....

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Liqourice

That all depends on what motherboard you decide to go with and what cpu's it supports.

I really don't know much about the X2's anymore but I hear the 5400 Black Edition is decent if you want to save money. But, I think this one is the least you should get.

AMD Processors for Desktops: AMD Phenom?, AMD Athlon? FX, AMD Athlon? X2 Dual-Core, AMD Athlon?, and AMD Sempron? Processor

Otherwise you could wait until January because the current Phenoms will probably drop in price when the new Phenom II's are released. I like my Phenom 9850 a lot. So far I've OC'd it from 2.5 to 3.2 GHz and I'll get it even higher if I just can get the temps down a bit.

onlyoneman

Yea, that sounds like a plan, being as I most likely won't decide on an exact setup until after January anyway.

I'm not all in to trying to OC anything yet. Does that mean that I should go with Intell?

Liqourice

Depends.

If it's a lot of gaming you probably want a faster cpu and then overclocking makes things a bit cheaper and the current intels are good overclockers. If you're not going for the high end gaming and you're not gonna overclock I'd say you get more for your money if you get an AMD. For normal usage you don't really need the best performers.

At stock speeds the AMD's are more priceworthy in my opinion. But on the other hand, nowadays it's so easy to overclock that it's almost silly so there's really no excuse not to!

If you want to OC a lot and get the most out of your money that way it's definately Intel. If not then go for AMD.

But this is my personal opinion.. others will probably say the opposite!

Neshi

just make sure you read a little into it so you are not frying your newly bought hardware. It's not hard to do, just make sure you have plenty of time on hand and as I stated, read a little something about it so you know what you are doing.

__________________
If one does not attach himself to people and desire, never shall his heart be broken. But then, does he ever truly live?

The only guarantee in life is failure, to achieve success you have to take risks.

onlyoneman

Definitely a matter of personal preference.
I have, in fact, recently been told just the opposite. My assumption, though, is that both brands have models suited to OCing, and ones that aren't so much.
I'll just have to do some reading about that as well.

I thank everyone for all their input. You guys have already answered a ton of questions, even ones you don't realize... You're all great. Thanks so much.
I'm sure I'll have plenty more questions, but I have a solid base to start doing my own research from now.

Neshi

Just shoot, we're all here to help eachother

__________________
If one does not attach himself to people and desire, never shall his heart be broken. But then, does he ever truly live?

The only guarantee in life is failure, to achieve success you have to take risks.

OldBuzzard

onlyoneman

I just looked at you proposed specs, and see that you are looking at the 520HX.

I would suggest that you go withe the 620HX instead, as you indicate that you might/would be adding a 2nd 4870. As good as they are, I doubt that the 520HX would handle 2x 4870s, while the 620HX will.

Getting the 620HX first will save money in the long run if/when you add the 2nd 4870.

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When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

onlyoneman

I'm sorry I forgot to include, in my later posts, answers regarding my budget.

Basically, I'm trying NOT to set a fixed budget.
If I do that I tend to find myself borrowing from Mr. Mobo to spoil Mr.RAM... or something to that effect...

... I don't want to do that. I want to put something together that will last me a couple good years, and a couple more by throwing in another g-card, but try not to go too over the top.

Good RAM and graphics is necessity as I will be gaming, but I dont't play shooters. The most ill be playing is SC2 and WoW. Not sure about what to expect from Starcraft, but WoW is not THAT demanding at all. Mostly worried about good FPS with a lot of highly detailed and shadowed animation for both games, and not dropping frames due to the super high visible distance recently added to WoW.

I would like to be able to run both games with video options cranked to max, but if that starts to look like it will totaly break the bank at the particular moment in time that I decide to actually start buying hardware, I can tone things down a little.

I'm currently in the process of figuring out things like:
which products provide the performance that I need, and which are over the top.
just how upgradable can a system of this quality be

(I'm realizing as I type this that I really SHOULD be thinking about OC friendly hardware)

That thread by Kris is helping me out a lot....

Final summation:

I want the performance I need, as cheap as I can get it.

I'll let you guys know something as soon as I get a clue.
HAHA.

But I still refuse to set a dollar figure. I'm trying to figure on "just under par" ... or "just over par" in this case...kind of a bad metaphor...but you know what I mean

kris23

in terms of as cheap as you can get it, WoW is not a demanding game, not at all. Starcraft II though is quite a bit more..... my GPU recommendation is an ATi Radeon HD 4850 up to a Nvidia GTX 260 core 216

a 4850 is only 150-170 dollars and is powerful
a GTX 260 Core 216 costs around $250-300 and is VERY powerful

both are good values but the 260 offers longevity

in terms of RAM, quantity is far more important than quality. thats why you see many off shelf rigs with cheapo RAM perform well because they have a lot of it

in my system thread youll see the $1000 system with Patriot 2x4GB sticks.... now thats a lot of RAM, good for this purpose,

lastly, if you want cheap power, go with the Q6600 its very fast and overclockable.

its old but it will be around for a while so if you cant get anything else, get this.


my recommendation, if you feel you can afford it, would be the $1250 system though. its expandable, flexible and built for the future.... and its almost twice the performance of the $1000 system and can be expanded on even further.

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onlyoneman

What socket type is the Q6600?
Is LGA 775 all I need to know, or do I need to look, specifically at quad-core or core 2 or whatever?
I kind of get the impression that all quad-core, core 2, and pentium processoers fall in to the LGA 775 socket type, but I just wanna make sure I'm not mistaking.

CDsDontBurn

yes, the q6600 is a 775 socket CPU.

if you can find one for cheap, i'd say go for the q9450 or the q9550

and, while we're on the subject of good CPUs, i thought you might like this deal

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onlyoneman

Backtracking a bit, to the PSU topic:


--SIDE NOTE--
The way im doing this is I'm going through hardware on different sites and seeing if I can pick each component for a complete system and end up with no questions or doubts. When I can do that, I figure its time to start actually tryng to pick stuff to build with.
-----

Im having a problem understanding how to choose a PSU. I cant find specs on any MOBO as far as the types of main power and PCIe connectors. I think the PCIe connectors may always be the same, but I know the main power differs from board to board (or at least it used to)...
seems like I could just count the number of pin slots? Is a "20+4 pin" connector the one with 24pin slots (12 top and 12 bottom), or is that a "24 pin connector"?
Maybe I'm over-complicating the hell out of this, but I don't want to go buying hardware that I can neither return or use.

There does seem to always be a nice picture of the hardware though, so the obvious
thing to do would be to learn to identify these types of connectors visually...havent had any luck finding any info about this because Im not sure how to word what I'm looking for, I guess. You guys seem to have a ready stock of guides...how about on this topic?

temeteus82

Well the ATX standard is rather clear about the pins, it is 20+4=24. The companies might just use any format telling the same pin layout but in general they all mean the same. The important thing is that how many pins there are in the PCI-E power cable 6 or 8 most of the newer generation nVidia cards use the 8-pin if I'm not mistaken. And for the CPU the 8-pin EPS12V

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OldBuzzard

Also on the PCIe power inputs, some cards, like my 3870 X2 have both. It needs One 6-Pin, and one 8-Pin.

The best bet is to look for a PSU that says it has 6+2 PCIe connectors.

Being a SHAMELESS FANBOI when it comes to Corsair PSUs I'll point out that the Corsair PSUs have the 6+2 connections

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When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY