Bring on the random freezing

IEMC · May 28, 2007, 02:08 PM

(Not sure if it's the right section. Didn't really see a section I could use.)

Yes, it's the unsolvable freezing.

It occurs randomly: At startup, in the middle of a game, when it's idle for an hour, or when I'm just browsing the internet. The computer simply stops. You can't move the mouse, use the keyboard, nothing. No looping sound, either. Simply frozen in time.

I built this computer not long ago, maybe about 3 - 4 months ago. Worked fine all the way up until 3 days ago. Well, maybe not, as sometimes my computer froze at startup, but it was rare and wasn't really a big deal to me.

Anyways, I was opening up Counter Strike Source, when my computer simply stopped moving (see first paragraph for sypmtoms). I was frusterated, so I hit the restart button, then my computer turned off, made a beep, but then just sat there. I got scared for a second, so I restarted it again. It started up, but then froze on the windows loading screen. I restarted it again, after pulling my hair out. I got it into safe mode, and checked the start up programs, making sure something that wasn't supposed to be there wasn't. Everything was normal, so i restarted into normal mode.

It started working as normal. After much of me worrying, everything was fine.

The next day, I started CSS again and got a game started so me and my brothers could play LAN. After sitting in spectator for a few minutes, it froze.

After that it worked for the rest of the night. But now, it's freezing a lot more frequently. At startup, to idling, you name it. I'm really frusterated as it's a new computer, and it worked fine before.

I don't know how to diagnose the problem, so i need your guy's help. I don't have the money or resources to just start replacing hardware, so that can't be an option. Also, I'm fairly sure it's not over heating, as my graphics card, at load, goes to about 53 degrees celcius, and my CPU goes to mid 30s, or at least I think it does.

I might be able to get a new hardrive, as I've been wanting one. The hardrive I have now is fairly old. I don't think that's it though. Woudlnt a failed harddrive give a BIOS error after freezing?

Specs:
CPU - Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.20GHz (HT)
RAM - 1024MB RAM @ PC5300 DDR2
Video Card - Geforce 7300 GT with 256 mb
Operating system - Windows XP pro
Power supply - 450 watt +12v @ 24 A

Not sure what the hardrive is.

Any help is appreciated.

PangingJr · May 28, 2007, 03:01 PM

sounds more like software problem. but have you run memtest yet? if you have not, then try checking you RAM first, run memtest software overnight and see if you receive any errors?

IEMC · May 28, 2007, 03:12 PM

Havent run memtest yet, good suggestion. Will do so tonight. Got a link I could get it from?

Forgot to add: I've done at least 6 AVG virus scans since this first started, so it's defientely not viruses.

PangingJr · May 28, 2007, 03:25 PM

for memtest software you can try using one from this -- www.memtest.org/

after that... you can proceed directly to these voodoo methods... clear out all the temporary files that are created by the Windows software system (include the internet temporary files), rebuild the system paging file(s), and then defrag you disk drive(s) both online and offline files, and finally, scan for virus and all other scumwares.
and see what happens after you have done all of these.

------------------

then after you post back, if all that didn't do a thing to help solve your problem then please proceed to this next voodoo method... disable your AV on-access scan (be warned about dangers of computer virus attacks. create a backup of your important files first), then if this help, then you will need to replace your AV software.

but if that didn't help either? then we need to spend much more time and more complicated tasks, if we have to objectively measure the problem in your software system, and to see if any problem and solution for it do exist. otherwise, we will skip that. and will have to continue to try the hardware sides and locate the problem in the other hardware devices...

IEMC · May 29, 2007, 02:11 PM

Alright, so last night, I did the memtest. I think it froze after a few hours when it got half way through 16 passes, because when i turned on my monitor, it was unresponsive. Well, let me rephrase that. When you hit commands for memtest, they wouldn't work, HOWEVER, things such as flashing bars were still going. Not sure what this means, but it's something.

On a lighter note, there's no errors after said 16 passes on my RAM, so that's a little sigh of relief.

As for that voodoo trick, I acctualy did it before I did the memtest, and it found nothing. The only benefit was probably the defrag, which was really needed. I know it didn't work because as soon as I came to this site it froze, go figure :P

I was kinda considering the same thing about your AV scanner idea, so I think I'll try that.

What about running virus / other scans during safe mode? is there a small chance it might find something hiding it self then?

Also, what are the chances this is the CPU? I wanna get this out of my life asap, so all suggestions are accepted.

PangingJr · May 29, 2007, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IEMC

Alright, so last night, I did the memtest. I think it froze after a few hours when it got half way through 16 passes, because when i turned on my monitor, it was unresponsive..

leave your RAM configuration as whatever it is for now, but try reinstall your system processor's fanheatsink include replace its thermal compound,
then after that rerun memtest overnight again, and see if the memtest is still running this time?

IEMC · May 29, 2007, 02:42 PM

So you're thinking it's a overheating problem?

Hm, is there a program that monitors your CPU temp and keeps a log / chart of it, also noting shutdowns / restarts?

PangingJr · May 29, 2007, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IEMC

So you're thinking it's a overheating problem?

i don't know, but i like to see memtest can still be running, just an overnight, you can leave the computer's case door open and temporary add a few case fans to make your system cool, faster/better than what you have mow.

IEMC · May 29, 2007, 04:03 PM

During the night I turned all my case fans off using my fan conroller. They're just too loud to bare when on full blast, or even half.

Maybe I could move it to another room for the night.

PangingJr · May 29, 2007, 04:32 PM

the memtest program by itself can crash or hang, but there are many reasons to it. anyway, we'll see if it hangs again or not. also check your motherboard maker to see if they have an update BIOS file for you to reflash your BIOS.

=====================================

Taken from the Memtest86+ FAQ v1.21
By R.R. van der Vossen (Wichetael)
http://forum.x86-secret.com/showthread.php?t=2807

Quote:

- Which memory is tested?

As much as possible of the system memory is tested. Unfortunately memtest86+
can usually not test all of the memory. The reason for this is that todays
processors and BIOSes have become so complex that they require a small
amount of memory to keep accounting data of the processor and BIOS state
respectively. If memtest were to write over these areas the state of the
processor or BIOS becomes invalid and it's behaviour unpredictable. Alas it
is also impossible to relocate these areas in the memory.

This means that a small area of your memory can not be tested by memtest.
If this part of the memory is defective you will know soon enough though as
the processor, parts of the processor or the BIOS simply won't work
correctly if this part of your memory is defective. Do realise though that
in very rare cases memtest will show no errors even though the module is
defective, not because memtest can't detect the error, but because memtest
can't test the area the error is located in.

Quote:

- Memtest freezes or my system crashes/reboots.

Check that you have USB legacy support disabled in your BIOS setup. Some
BIOSes have a bug in them that reports the reserved memory areas
incorrectly in the e820 memory map. This causes memtest to write over the
memory area used by the USB legacy support resulting in freezes or reboots.

Any crashes or reboots can also be caused by a myriad of other problems,
including incorrent settings and defective parts. On the whole you can
pretty much assume that the cause of memtest crashing is with your machine
and not with memtest. Thousands of people use memtest on a daily basis and
should experience the same problems if the cause is with memtest.

When you do think you've found a bug in memtest first try to confirm
(replicate) the bug on another system, preferably by someone else. Also
make sure the problem is not caused by any of the BIOS settings, any BIOS
bugs or the media you have memtest written on. When you're sure you've
found a bug in memtest please report it on the memtest forum.

Quote:

- What is elimination of factors? [new]

Elimination of factors is a well known and tried and true method of
troubleshooting. The idea is that you have a reproducible error, such as
errors reported by memtest86+, but it could also be a crash when running a
certain program, artifacts in the video output of the computer, incorrect
results of mathematical calculations, etc. etc.

The idea of the method is to change a factor in the entire system and rerun
the test after each change. If the test still produces the error then the
problem is not in the factor just changed, if it doesn't produce the error
anymore the problem is most likely in the factor just changed. More testing
needs to follow though.

Factors to change are numerous, e.g. you can replace a part of the system
with a part of the same brand and model. Note that replacing a part with a
part of a different brand and model you are actually changing more than one
factor at a time, this is important in determining the actual cause of the
problem. Other factors to change are system settings, in the context of this
FAQ this mostly concerns BIOS settings. Yet other factors are software
(including the BIOS or other firmware) versions, and in some cases
reinstallations of said software.

Ideally you have the least number of factors to contend with, so the first
thing to eliminate is usally as much software as possible as this is the
least standardised and the least predictable. This is also the reason why
memtest86+ is written not to use an OS of any kind, instead it boots the
system itself and runs outside of any operating system.

Next you remove as much parts from the computer as you can that are not
essential for the computer to run or the test to be performed, for example
you can disconnect all external hardware, all harddrives, all optical
drives, the floppy drive and card reader, you can remove any add-on cards
except for the graphics card, etc. Of course you need to leave the device
that you load memtest from connected to the system.

Assuming the system is still producing the same error, it is time for
looking at the BIOS settings try disabling any non-critical features and
toggling many of the options, while of course keeping the specs of your
system in regard. Next you turn to restting the BIOS after which you upgrade
or reflash the BIOS. Note that you might erase DMI information containing
your Windows license from the BIOS by flashing it. If you purchached your
computer from an OEM supplier with a Windows recovery you more than likely
do not want to flash the BIOS.

Next you want to replace parts of the core system, i.e. the memory modules,
the processor(s), the videocard, the psu, the motherboard etc. Preferably
these parts should be replaced by parts of the same brand and model. If you
do not have such parts available to you the only viable option is to consult
a computer repair shop or the technical department of your computer
supplier.

If the error is still not resolved when all parts have been replaced there
might be several things going on. The first thing to check is of course if
the parts you used to swap the original parts with are in fact not
defective. Replace them again, preferably from a different batch of the same
brand and model. The next thing to check is if there exists a compatibility
problem between any two of the parts. The computer world is governed by
standards, but every manufacturer always seems to have their own idea on how
to interpret these standards. This means that although most parts work okay
together with most other parts, there are some parts that simply do not work
correctly with particular other parts. Replace the parts with parts of a
different brand and model to see if the problems are resolved.

When the problem does appear to be resolved by changing a factor, it is
pretty likely that the cause is in that factor, but this cannot be
guaranteed. For example when removing or replacing an internal component the
BIOS usually takes note of this en runs a special part of it's program to do
any necessary administrative work. In some cases this on itself can resolve
problems, or temporarily relieve them. It is therefore always import that,
when you find the change that resolves the problem, you reverse this change
and see if the problem comes back. If the problem does come back then you
can be reasonably certain that the actual cause of the problem is within the
factor changed. If however the problem does NOT come back you are
essentially back to square one. This is one of the most difficult situations
to properly diagnose, and in fact you cannot really be sure to resolve such
a problem with the elimination of factors technique. There are however not
any viable other options to diagnose such a problem without deeper access to
the system or special diagnostic equipment.

Memtest86+ Official Forum -- http://forum.x86-secret.com/forumdisplay.php?f=14

PangingJr · Jun 1, 2007, 06:39 AM

how's it going?

IEMC · Jun 1, 2007, 02:35 PM

Oh sorry for the late response.

I never got a chance to do another memtest, so hopefully I can squeeze one in this weekend.

I reinstalled my AV software as mine died on me (for whatever reason), and it's still freezing every so often, so that's not the problem.

IEMC · Jul 19, 2007, 06:10 PM

I can't do this anymore. I'm ripping my hair out it's so bad now.

It does it every half an hour to an hour, and I'm so frusterated I'm ready to throw my computer out the window.

THE COMPUTER IS 3 MONTHS OLD, IT SHOULDNT BE DOING THIS.

I need help, I'm desperate now. Could it be short circuting? Bad power supply? Bad CPU? WHAT IS IT?!

Alls I wanna do is use my computer knowing it wont fuck me over and suddenly stop working. That's it. Please help.

EDIT: When using my computer, I decided to open the side. I felt the heatsink that's typically in the middle of all motherboards (Not sure what it's for / what it does, not THAT computer smart) and it's pretty hot. Not hot enough to not touch it, but hot enough to be of concern.

EDIT NUMBER 2: I found that a USB controller is sharing the same IRQ number as my graphics card. Not sure if it's a problem, or even what the USB controller does except makes USB devices function. Would it be safe to disable it?

Also as a note: I have no money to work with, only spare, crappy old power supplies.

EDIT 3:
I kinda think it's a power supply problem, but how could I test that theory? I don't have money to buy a new one, a "good" (known to be reliable) one at least, and the old PSUs I have don't have enough 'A' rating on the +12v rail.

Any way I could test my PSU? Anyone willing to donate a PSU to a good home? I'm running out of options.

IEMC · Jul 21, 2007, 02:49 PM

I'm guessing this is a problem that can't be solved, huh?

gtxstan · Jul 21, 2007, 03:23 PM

Having the same problem as you described... From whats going on man, it seems more like Overheating issues cause my computer can continue to operate and such, only when the case is opened and a fan is constantly moving the air towards the exposed part. Er, seriously check your PSU and write down the temps.

Hope this helps, did for me.

IEMC · Jul 21, 2007, 03:38 PM

All of my temperatures are fine and well within okay ranges. That's not a realy concern. Only thing that may be getting hot is, as mentioned, the heatsink on my motherboard.

How would I test my PSU? I wish I had another one to put in it's place, but all the ones I have aren't powerful enough.

Yesterday I was in my case tinkering around, just checking stuff out, so I rearranged my power cables. I took a line, ran it to my HD, CD RW, and my floppy. I took another line and put it directly on my fan controller. All 4 things used to be on one line.

I thought it worked. All day yesterday I had no lock ups, even during about 3 hours of playing Source games. Then today I go to play, and get a lock up about 5 - 10 mins in.

Anyone willing to donate a PSU?

IEMC · Jul 21, 2007, 05:46 PM

I don't know what to think now.

I wanna lean towards software trouble after this. I just did an Everest System Stability test, which ran the CPU at 100 percent, while testing hard drives, and memory, and the computer didn't lock up. The peak temperature for the CPU was 37 degrees celcius, which as far as I know is fine for a Prescott. I also had my fans going at full blast just to be sure.

You'd think if it was the PSU, this would freeze it because of the immense power being drawn, but it didn't, the computer's fine.

I wish there was a way I could do those same tests and run my GPU at the same time, putting even more stress in. Then it would at least let me know if it's a GPU problem, which could be bad drivers or something. it's definently not a bad card, because I just got this one from RMA, brand new. It happened before I got a new card, too.

I'm about to reinstall drivers / do driver clean up soon, if not someone please advise me what to do next.

Necrosis · Jul 21, 2007, 06:05 PM

Hmm sure sounds like a power problem to me. What don't you try running two power supplies?

IEMC · Jul 21, 2007, 06:45 PM

How would that help?

The problem isn't not enough power, the possible problem is a unstable power supply. If I have 1 power supply thats unstable, and another that is stable, than the unstable will still probably ruin the party.

Like I said, if I had another power supply, than I could test this. But I can't, so I'm looking for other possibilities.

**kris23** · Jul 21, 2007, 09:48 PM

then use two completely different ones........ your grammar is suggesting you own at least two other power supplies...... use them