24/96??

SFrond

When My computer was last functional I was using KX grivers for my Audi2 Plat. I was wondering if this new release (3538j) supports 24/96 real time encoding/playback? Or if they are still working on that . . .
Thanks, Ciao

Maddogg6

24/96 works (since 3538H at least) for WinMM recording - not ASIO.
I assume you meant recording with 'encoding'


Playback isnt a problem either. I've used a SRC for winamp to up-convert to 24/96.
AFAIK - the A2 can play anything in WinMM mode - ASIO is still limited to 16/48 tho.

Eugene made a post of things to expect in final release...

Russ

I think there is a way to bypass the DSP, and thus get 96kHz playback as well (i.e. not resampled), but I do not think kX can do this as of yet.

i.e. from the ALSA driver.

Maddogg6

I pretty certain this accomplished with the 24/96 router.

Wave HQ is the device that allows 24/96 recording.

Now if theres 'trickery' to make it appear its working, I didnt examine if full resolution was avaialable - only that players report a 24/96 format.


edit:

Come to think about it - I may have seen something about only 20 bits used - even with creative drivers. (ie - SNR or dynamic range reported by CL, indicated only 20 bits implemented.)

Russ

Again, I do not know anything about it, I just happened to come across that information and thought I would post it in case that is was the OP was referring to.

Maddogg6

was that info dated? - Im thinking its old. ??

Russ

It was some time in 2005 (I do not have the page open any longer), so it is a little old, but it did sound different from my understanding (which is very little as I do not have one of these cards) of how it works in kX.

SFrond

Sadly I just started getting into this when my computer died. Is it true that ASIO is preferable to WinMM? What exactly are primary pros and cons?

Maddogg - what does " AFAIK - the A2 can play anything in WinMM mode - ASIO is still limited to 16/48 tho." mean? Is the soundcard itself limited to 16/48?

Whats is a 24/96 router? What is Wave HQ?


Sorry for all the questions. Thanks for the responses!

Russ

ASIO vs WinMM, depends a little on what your recording needs are, but generally ASIO is better.
ASIO is low latency, so you can basically do real time recording. Also, there are 16 ASIO inputs/outputs with kX, so you can record multiple tracks at the same time.

As for WinMM. it is higher latency and single input/ouput, but it allows recording of formats other than 16/48.

Maddogg6

ASIO is superior for low latency. I get 5ms with no PC optimizations - others report lower.
BUT - 24/96 is not (yet?) supported for ASIO. ONLY 16/48 record AND playback is allowed in ASIO.

WinMM currently is the only way I can record anything in 24/96.

As Far As I Know - any bitrate can be played back in WinMM (media player/ winamp etc)
In winamp I use Directsound - but WaveOut is also supported.

The sound card isn't limited to 16/48 - BUT the DSP is - so, when 24/96 playback (or - supposively up to 32/192) - the DSP can be bypassed and is routed through the P16V, which is 'hardwired' (via the 24/96 router) to the SPDIF and/or I2S physical outputs - the 24/96 router allows me to set WHAT output this is sent to (SPDIF AND/OR I2S) - and the port.

Note: I have no 32/192 files to try to playback - 32/96 and 24/96 does work.

Wave HQ is the device I select to record 24/96.[/quote]

dj_stick

kX does support direct SPDIF recording (bypassing the DSP) check details on the kX homepage for instructions on how to use it

SFrond

Alright lemme see if I have digested this properly.

The DSP (data compression) of the KX Drivers does not allow 24/96 recording in ASIO, but it does in WinMM. ASIO is preferred because it has multiple realtime recording channels. Does this mean that you cannot record stereo in WinMM?


The 24/96 Router is a piece of HardWare? Controlled by the Wave HQ Software? The combination of the two bypasses the DSP?


Someone mentioned something about this setup only actually processing 20 bit depth. Any way to verify this?



Last question; Are there really no better drivers then KX?

Russ

WinMM is stereo (2 inputs), I mis-typed that in my last reply.
As for the kX drivers being the best, that really depends on your setup and how you use your sound card (and your own opinion, and whether your sound card is fully supported by kX, etc), so it is not a simple question to answer.

BTW: The thing about real time recording and ASIO, is that it also means that you can listen to one or more tracks, and record additional tracks, in time with the tracks you are listening to, etc. Additionally, it allows you to use VST/DX effects in real time, so it is like having a software DSP as well.

Maddogg6

DSP = Digital Signal Processor - It what is responsible for much of the signal routing and allows things like reverb/chorus/delay effects (among MUCH more actually).

BUT, there is more hardware on the sound card that JUST the DSP.
The P16V fro instance, allows 24/96 recording & playback.
It is accessed as the 'WAVE HQ' sound device - as selected in host software.
The 24/96 router is what routs 24/96 playback, bypassing the DSP, directly to the phyical outputs.

I think that was me who mentioned reading about this. With the right software (rightmark) - as I understand - results of tests compared to known theories - will indicate the probable bitdepth and sample rate.
For instance - analyzing frequency response can indicate the max sample rate possible. and dynamic range as well as SNR test results will indicate possible bitdepths.

As I recall - it was the I2S codecs that were limited to 20bits - which ONLY affect analog output - BUT its possible that using SPDIF outputs *could* use greater bit depths. -

Most of those requiring 24/96 formats - normally obtain this testing ability - if not able to 'hear' the differences.
Well, if KX w/ your card doesn't suite your needs - I suggest you to get a true 24/96 card - one with a true 24(or 32)/96 DSP and ASIO drivers.

Lets face it - SB makes 'consumer' cards. KX allows us to realize the cards true potential.

We would ALL like 24/96 ASIO recording ability - but if it means loosing abilities to: create my own effects; play most games; watch TV/DVD's in surround; edit video; compress streaming media for web sites; on the SAME PC used to create music arrangements .... I can live with out that feature. It all a matter of priority and budget - right?

24/96 WILL NEVER be able to be processed by the DSP in that format with out first converting to 16/48 first - its a hardware limitation - not software.

So most here will agree - NO there is no better than KX. They beat the CL drivers hands down!

SFrond

Alright I think Im getting the point now. The hardware interface of my SOUNDCARD doesnt allow ASIO 24/96?

What Im doing as far as recording is alot of multitracking. Im using Sonar and BFD to create 8+ tracks of rock and roll goodness. I dont necessarily need to record many tracks at once, but since Im doing ALOT of dubbing I would need to play them all back at once. Also I plan on using primarily DirectX fx. So I guess I have two final questions:

I know that CD quality is 16/41 but I was under the impression that oversampling and then reducing to 16/41 for media would give you an improved quality of sound. Is this true? Is it a noticeable difference?


If oversampling does give a boost in quality, is there anyway to do what I need with the WinMM format? (I think I already know the answer to this one lol )

Maddogg6

Sonar WILL support WinMM -and thus YOU CAN record in 24/96 - with 'Compensated' latency.

In other words - if you play a guitar - and mic your amp - this is VERY doable. -

But if you plug your guitar into the soundcard and want to record that THROUGH DX effects - the latency will make if impossible to get anything recorded in time with other tracks.


If thats confusing - Answer this question - Will you be expecting to use something like Amplitube or guitar rig as your 'Guitar amp' to record from?

SFrond

No sir, I am using a mic'd cab. Would I be able to play back my drum and bass track as I record guitar/vocals?

Also, your opinion on the quality difference between oversampling and not.

Thanks again for your help.

Maddogg6

Recording while playing back in this way will prolly depend on the system - if your system cant keep up - you'll get drop outs in sonar.

I don't use 24/96, for a couple of reasons

1) I use Softsynths and latency without ASIO is too much to be usefull.
2) project sizes get out of hand -vs- quality improvments aren't worth it to me (just a hobbiest musician)
3) AFAIK - the I2S codecs (which is used for analog out) is limited to 20 bit - so at the cost of all that extra space theres just 4bit extra resolution - and because all my recording is done in 16/48 - and the fact that sonar does have a descent dithering algo - I don't really hear such a great improvemnt - definitly not enough to warrent the ~ 4x file size per track increase.

Keeping in mind sonar 'wraps' the 24 bit data into a 32 bit file format. - there maybe a way to avoid this - but I just did some recording in sonar mostly just to see if was possible/working.

I mostly noticed I can have 'hotter' inputs before distorting shows up as peaked meters in sonar.

SFrond

Well Id like to consider myself serious, but Im sure Im just a hobby musician also. From what you are saying there really isnt that much of an improvement, and I really dont want 4x filesize, thatll surely screw me. I think Ill just stick with the 16/41 . . . .

ASudri

3538j released...
-Added '24/96 Router' for P16V hardware mixer (Audigy2 only)
- kX ASIO driver re-written to support 24/96 and other formats (Audigy2 only) (EXPERIMENTAL, not yet functional)
- Improved 24-bit and 32-bit format support (Audigy2)

How about this?

dj_stick

the 24/96 router just turns on/off the i2s/spdif outputs from the dsp and/or p16v chip

kX ASIO atm i think may support 24bit playback ONLY, but iirc it's a but buggy

and the 24/32bit support would be WDM playback i'm guessing