sonar changing bitraate and Hz of project(44100->48000)

mrvomit · Jan 2, 2006, 03:06 PM

I have a very big project (about 350 Mb) recorded at 44100.

Would like to use and learn to use asio drivers ,but obviously not possible.
SONAR CANT convert the files directly

Question:
1) can i use an external program to convert files In a single click (batch command)?

Sonar would open that project correctly (OK i HAVE to BACKUP obviously)
if i just convert extyernally the files?

2) if i convert the files to 48Khz 24Bit ,could i use ASIO drivers anyway (they operate at 48khz 16bit if i'm not mistaking)?

**dj_stick** · Jan 2, 2006, 05:32 PM

iirc one of the later soundforge versions has a batch conversion feature, investigate that and see if it suits your needs

Maddogg6 · Jan 2, 2006, 05:54 PM

Well, converting the wave file externall still doesnt change the sonar project - so everything will be high pitch/fast if it works at all (denpending on version of sonar??)

Anyway - the 'official way' is:

Open 44 project - export all audio (using clips may make things more complicated, so use meaningful names - if they arent already)

close all projects

Set sonars default project format to 48Khz

Restart sonar
Make new project - is now in 48 - set tempo meter and/or copy&paste midi - import audio.

This is 'as per' manual. AFAIK - its the only way..

So - as a 'short cut' - you could convert the cached wave data of open projects (ALL BUNDLES need extraction/save as project FIRST) -

But I dont know of a way to 'change' the project files audio format.

mrvomit · Jan 4, 2006, 05:39 PM

uhm thanks maddogg .
That works only if you bounce in-one all the single clips In track .

But in that way i ,in fact ,lose "the project" in that way(export /import audio) .
Its an old work in progress songs which have really a lot (hunderts) of clips ,with many version (muted and unmuted ).

_________________

It seems cakewalk insist on his weak points again and again on the years ,dunno why.

If i just i did'nt get so used to cakewalk,i would switch ,but every time i try something else ,i lose a lot of time for my stupid score-dependant way to write music parts.

miguel · Jan 4, 2006, 07:37 PM

mrvomit, the way I'd do it in logic audio (should work for you) is resample all project wave files to 48khz (more on this later) then open the song. Of course now everything sounds off pitch and off tempo but changing the song's rate to 48 compensates for the added samples and everything sounds fine.

One useful thing logic has is realtime sample rate conversion. Doesn't sound excellent and consumes some cpu but you can for example record with kX at 48khz then edit somewhere else with a 44100 soundcard then back to the kX PC without ireversibly modifying the audio samples. Maybe sonar has this?

Maybe some will laugh at me for this but for batch resampling, etc I find foobar excellent, the resampler plugin sounds great to me. Try it

edit: it's at http://www.foobar2000.org/

Maddogg6 · Jan 4, 2006, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvomit

uhm thanks maddogg .
That works only if you bounce in-one all the single clips In track .

But in that way i ,in fact ,lose "the project" in that way(export /import audio) .
Its an old work in progress songs which have really a lot (hunderts) of clips ,with many version (muted and unmuted ).

_________________

It seems cakewalk insist on his weak points again and again on the years ,dunno why.

If i just i did'nt get so used to cakewalk,i would switch ,but every time i try something else ,i lose a lot of time for my stupid score-dependant way to write music parts.

Yes you loose the project - this is a very weak point for sonar : A simple convert is in sonar but only bit depth and not sample freq.

But you dont have to bounce in Sonar 5 - I forget how it was in 4 now...Single clips will export in 5 - so at least its still possible. It would be nice if KX would handle 44 better.

You can still mix a 44 project - export finished mix -

just set KX ASIO to format: 16 44Khz [16/0] or [8/0] or even [2/2] and record.
[playback channels / record channels]

miguel · Jan 4, 2006, 08:15 PM

Maddogg, if you are right (and I'm pretty sure you are) then sonar really needs some realtime or offline resampling. The bit depth conversion seems rather useless. Strange for sonar, it looks so good to the "stuck" logic Pc user

regards

thomasabarnes · Jan 4, 2006, 08:33 PM

From the SONAR Help file:

In general, it's better to keep the sample rate and audio bit depth of a project consistent from start to finish, but SONAR has tools and procedures to accomplish the following tasks:

Preparing higher-quality audio (greater than 16-bit, 44.1 kHz) for CD burning (CD format is 16-bit, 44.1 kHz)
Rewriting audio files at different bit depths
Converting the sample rate of a project
Importing 24-bit audio into a 16-bit project
Importing 16-bit audio into a 24-bit project
Importing audio that has a different sample rate into a project

Here are the steps involved:

To Prepare Higher-quality Audio for CD Burning

Use the File-Export Audio command to open the Export Audio dialog. Choose RIFF Wave in the Files of Type field, Export to Stereo File(s) in the Format field, and 16 in the Bit Depth field.
After exporting the audio, close SONAR and open up your sound card control panel (for Midiman cards, usually the Delta Control Panel, for Echo Audio, usually the Echo Console, for MOTU it's the 324 console, etc.) Once the control panel is open change the setting for your sample rate to 44.1 kHz.
Next launch SONAR and use the Options-Audio command to open the Audio Options dialog. In the General section change the Audio Driver Bit Depth to 16. Change Default Settings for New Projects to 44100 Hz for the Sampling Rate and 16 bits for the File Bit Depth.
After making these adjustments, click the Wave Profiler button in the Audio Options dialog. In some instances, with certain audio hardware configurations you may be prompted with an audio driver error dialog during this process. This is nothing to be concerned about. You will have to exit SONAR, re-launch, verify the settings you made in the Audio Options dialog, and click the Wave Profiler button again. When you can successfully run the Wave Profiler without an audio driver error, proceed to the next step.
Create a new project (File-New command). The Normal option is fine for this.
Import the mixed down audio by using the File-Import Audio command.
Confirm the bit depth and sample rate of the imported audio by using the File-Info command, and clicking File Stats. The File Stats dialog lists the correct sample rate and bit depth.
Final step: use the File-Export Audio command. Be sure to select 16 for the Bit Depth and uncheck all Mix Enables.

Now you can burn your exported audio file to CD, using Cakewalk MediaWorks, or other software.

To Rewrite Audio Files at Different Bit Depths

Use the Tools-Change Audio Format command to open the Change Audio Format dialog.
Choose a new bit depth in the New Bit Depth field.
If you're changing to 16 bits, you can check or uncheck the Apply Dither checkbox. Dithering means to add a certain audio signal to 16 bit audio to make it sound more like it did as a 24 bit signal.
Click OK.

SONAR rewrites the audio tracks in your project at the new bit depth.

To Convert the Sample Rate of a Project

Select an audio track and use the File-Export Audio command to open the Export Audio dialog.
Select the options you want, and click Export to export the track.
Repeat steps 1 and 2 for all the audio tracks you want to convert.
After you've exported all the tracks you want to convert, open the Audio Options dialog (Options-Audio command), and on the General tab, change the Sampling Rate field to the desired number.
Use the File-New command to open a new project.
Use the File-Import Audio command to open the Import Audio dialog.
Select the audio files you just exported (hold down the Ctrl key while you click each one), and click Open to import the files.

SONAR imports the selected files at the new sampling rate.

To Import 24-bit Audio into a 16-bit Project

Open the Audio Options dialog (Options-Audio command), and on the General tab, change the File Bit Depth field to 24.
Use the File-New command to open a new project.
Import the 24-bit audio into the new project.
Use the Tools-Change Audio Format command to open the Change Audio Format dialog.
Choose 16 in the New Bit Depth field.
You can check or uncheck the Apply Dither checkbox. Dithering means to add a certain audio signal to 16 bit audio to make it sound more like it did as a 24 bit signal.
Click OK. SONAR rewrites the audio clips at 16 bits.
Open the 16-bit project that you want to import the audio into.
Drag or paste the rewritten audio clips into the 16-bit project.

To Import 16-bit Audio into a 24-bit Project

Just use the File-Import Audio command to import the 16-bit audio files.

To Import Audio That Has a Different Sample Rate

Use the File-New command to open a new project.
Open the Audio Options dialog (Options-Audio command), and on the General tab, change the Sampling Rate field to the same rate that your project uses.
Use the File-Import Audio command to import the audio file(s) (this converts them to the new sample rate).
Open the project that you want to import the audio into, and drag or paste the resampled audio clips into the target project.

miguel · Jan 4, 2006, 09:42 PM

Hi thanks for the info thomasabarnes

, now the bit depth options make some sense, i'm used to transparently mixing 16bit kX recordings with 24bit bounces of other tracks as I run out of CPU. Still something worries me.

Bouncing 16bit kX tracks to 24bit (or more) is the thing to do as from the very moment you touch a track's fader, apply an effect, etc it becomes a 24bit file (or watever bit accuracy the sequencer's audio engine runs at, 64bit for sonar?). For example if the engine runs at 32 bit, truncating to 24bit for bouncing is ok, the induced artifacts should be inaudible.

But then, having to dither to 16bit to reimport bounces as the "To Import 24-bit Audio into a 16-bit Project" suggests is a sound degrading technique in my books... be carefull out there!

On a side note, I still find rather difficult to move sonar projecs from a machine to another that supports a different sample rate.

regards

mrvomit · Jan 5, 2006, 08:10 AM

Yep ,Thanks .
Like i said: it exports THE TRACK , NOT the clips :
You HAVE to BoUNCE them.
I have hundert of clips in that particular songs.And stil work in progress (my "unfinished long one"),
so if i bounce i lose some "alternative "patterns .

Exporting ,converting clips is possible.
But losing the project means: Sonar can't put the single clips again in the correct order.

So no way to doi it at the moment.
i have sonar 4 ,i was hoping sonar 5 resolved some of that issues (Issues since cakewalk pro).

_____________
By the way ,maddog(or everyone th. uses Sonar5)
,how do you feel with Sonar 5?. better than 4 or heavier ,buggy ,or whatever?

Maddogg6 · Jan 5, 2006, 06:57 PM

AFAIK- Sonar LOCKs the sample rate to avoid/elimnate timing issues/problems - So.. .. Sonar 5 STILL has project conversion problems.

Now - to 'work-around' you can...

Set KX ASIO to use 44Khx [16+0] and mix/export projects in 44 - convert finished SONG to whatever format at that point..

44 PLAYBACK still works with KX - JUST NOT RECORDING/OUTPUT MORE THAN 2 mono / 1 Stereo Channel at a time.
Look at the formats in ASIO control panel - you'll see several - 48 and 44 and even 96
The numbers in the 'braces' - '[' & ']' indicate [PLAYBACK/RECORD] channels available.

So mixing and editing - even recording are supported (playback tested personally, not recording tho) so Unless you have more recording to do in an existing 44 project - this should be of some comfort.

mrvomit · Jan 6, 2006, 04:39 AM

i record clips in a single session (is "home composing" stuff), but record doesn't work on 44khz.tested few weeks ago
Asio panel :For 44Khz has just the option [*numbers*+0] meaning no recording possible i gues
That song is far to be finished, otherwise it would not a problem (single "finished " track conversions ).

Thanks for the tips anyway Guys , always are useful

Maddogg6 · Jan 6, 2006, 11:21 PM

Hmm - in KX V3538h - theres a 44Kz [2/2] - are you saying that you've tried and tested this mode and that it doesnt work?

Or are you saying you dont have a 44 Khz [2/2] in KX asio panel?

mrvomit · Jan 12, 2006, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

Hmm - in KX V3538h - theres a 44Kz [2/2] - are you saying that you've tried and tested this mode and that it doesnt work?

Or are you saying you dont have a 44 Khz [2/2] in KX asio panel?

Yep i have just 44khz 2+0 option.

I heave Reinstalled MANY times drivers since my (NEW) system does'nt accept Kx smoothly:I think its motherbord blame :Many crashes of sonar during recordings and so on til i reinstall.Tried everything to install everything except "standard"install mode of windows. (BUGGy like hell )

SO..IF I reinstall FROM "START/kx reinstall " Shortcut,
That thing reinstall Kc 3538C or 3538H version of the drivers?
How i can check version installed in the case?

_________________________-______________________-
I remeber having followed that advice:

Download 3538c
Install the application, but do not install the drivers
Step 2 - installing 3538g
Download 3538g
Install the application, but do not install the drivers.
Step 3 - installing 3538h
Download 3538h

extract this archive to your 3538 install directory (usually C:\Program Files\kX Project\3538\)
Click yes to any overwrite prompts
Step 4 - installing the drivers
Run the setup file from the 3538 install directory, once the drivers have been installed and your system rebooted, you are ready to use 3538h

Maddogg6 · Jan 12, 2006, 03:36 PM

The lack of 44 Khx [2/2] - could be because its a LIVE and mines A2ZS ..? _ i would expect it tho... ??

In KX tray icon - right click - help - About.. - in there is ALL INFO about KX install.
Copy - paste into a post here to have a look see.

Heres Mine:

Code:

	   kX Project
Expanding the Potential Exponentially
	   www.kxproject.com
----------------------------------------------------
kX Audio Driver, kX Mixer  (Debug)
Copyright � Eugene Gavrilov, 2001-2005.
All Rights Reserved
Version: 5, 10, 00, 3538 - debug
Compiled: Dec 21 2004 06:01:17

kX DSP effects library (c) Eugene Gavrilov,
 Hanz Petrov and Max Mikhailov, 2001-2005.

kX VSTi / kX Automation (c) Eugene Gavrilov
 and Max Mikhailov, 2002-2005.

Portions of code
 Copyright (c) Sergey Komarinsky, 2002-2005.

Dane Assembler Copyright (c) 2001-2005 
 by Max Mikhailov and Eugene Gavrilov.

kX Help file Copyright (c)
 Hanz Petrov, Eugene Gavrilov and 
 Soeren Bovbjerg, 2002-2005.

See file readme.html for the license agreement
----------------------------------------------------
ASIO Technology by Steinberg
CodeMax2.0 Copyright 1997-2000 Barry Allyn
inflate 1.1.3 Copyright 1995-1998 Mark Adler
sfArk SoundFont compression Copyright melodymachine.com
----------------------------------------------------
Credits
----------------------------------------------------
  Thanks to:
   Max Mikhailov
   Hanz Petrov
   Daniel Bertrand
   Soeren Bovbjerg
   LeMury
   Sergey Komarinsky
   Friedemann Wolpert
   Dennis Samuelsson
   Luki Goldschmidt
   Fabio Bizzetti
   Matt Young
   Tom Weber
   Cybercurve
   eYagos
   Robert Mazur
   Martijn van Eeten
   Remy TROTIN
   WORM
   moudi
   Treasure
   David Descheneau
   stachooo@poczta.fm
   Guayabo
   DK
   DM
   Vedran Miletic
   E. Sokol
 full list is available here:
  www.kxproject.com/credits.php
----------------------------------------------------
Current skin: Aqua Skin
Skin Author: Eugene Gavrilov
----Hardware / Software configuration---------------
Driver Name:kX Audio Driver (Debug)
Driver Date: Dec 21 2004 05:59:43
Driver Version: 5.10.00.3538 - debug
DB Name:LiveBay2
SB0350 10k2 [b800]
PCI Information: 
Device: 41102 Subsys: 20021102 ChipRev: 4
Card is '10k2'
Card has MPU device
Card model is '5.1'
Card is Audigy2-compatible
Card HAS AC97 codec
	Codec name: Unk AC97-codec [83847650]
	3D Extension: SigmaTel 3D Enhancement
	Codec is 2.0 compliant
	Capabilities[6a90]	 : -headphone out-
	DAC resolutions  : -16-bit- -20-bit-
	ADC resolutions  : -16-bit- -20-bit-
	Ext Capabilities [605]: -var rate PCM audio- -slot/DAC mappings-
Port: b800 Irq: 0x7(7)
Playback buffer: 20a0
Record buffer: 4000
Number of AC3 buffers: 4
Tank memory: 2048 kb
GSIF buffer: 256 samples
OS version: [2 5 1 Service Pack 2; 2 5 1 Service Pack 2; 156 148]
----------------------------------------------------