KX cards as standalone Effects Units.

ROBSCIX · Jun 26, 2005, 02:34 PM

Hey guys, In another thread we were speaking of External mixers and KX cards. I cam up with an idea of using a low end PC fitted with a few KX cards. 2-3. Patched to the Channel inserts on an externl mixer. So in this way I would have all the Power of the KX DSP on 2-3 channels of my Yorkville mixer. I would use The Send to the LINE_IN and the Return from the Front_out..or whatever. Sit for a night and make a whole bunch of patches for Frequent tasks..compressor and EQ and reverb for a volcal Patch..etc. Has anybody did this previously. I am gathering gear right now to set up my home recording studio but I figured my SB Live! 5.1 DE and SB Live! wouldn't really have much use in a studio that I wanted to build but now it has a very good purpose. Without KX, I wouldn't have the Configuraiblity that would be needed for such a project. Also gives my mixer alittle more uses as well.So has anybody did this before? What do you guys think is this a good idea or what? I would like feedback or some ideas thx in advance for the feedback guys..

**dj_stick** · Jun 26, 2005, 05:57 PM

i personally haven't done that, but it's quite a conceivable application for kX
all you need to do in the dsp is:
input to fx to output

Nappylady · Jun 26, 2005, 06:40 PM

I have done this.

Having a good reverb available through an Aux send is a real asset. Please realize that you can get two effects with one soundcard--in my usual setup, the left channel goes into a nice, deep stereo reverb, and the right channel goes into a cascaded (repeating) slap echo. Being able to tweak the two in combination, pre-fader, and using the pan control, really makes advanced soundstaging and sonic positioning possible. People listen to my mixes and feel they can pinpoint performers in the soundstage, even though they were all near-field mic'd.

You've hit on a great idea! Keep trying new things, and make sure you post here what you did and how well it went for you.

ROBSCIX · Jun 27, 2005, 01:54 PM

Actually given that I will be building a standalone PC for the KX cards I have..then I will have 4 channels total, using the stereo pair idea. I have two cards each has a stereo line_in..Ha never thought about that until now. I have been doing some shopping for a mobo and Chip...hey stick what do you think is the minimum system I could get a way with to say hold 2-3 SB's? I am just curious I will just get a second hand PC..and set it up dedicated for the FX unit....I will post when it's done..with my experience and such. See The cards will have no other purpose then to apply effects to my channels on my mixer...Given the DSP power OF KX to purchase a standalone FX unit with this kind of effect quality and advanced routing possibilities...it would be a pretty expensive unit wouldn't you say?

Nappylady · Jun 27, 2005, 02:20 PM

I have a K6-2 400 with 256 MB of RAM, and it has 3 SB Live!'s in it. I have not managed to overtax the system yet :-)

The best part about using kX cards for effects boxes is that you can tax the computer's CPU all you want, and the cards will not skip or pop or jump or slow down. The biggest limiting factors I've found have been (1) having a Pentium-class computer that can run DirectX 8 and kX, and (2) having enough RAM for all the soundfonts you want to use. And if you don't use soundfonts, you could get away with 16 megs of RAM!

ROBSCIX · Jun 27, 2005, 05:59 PM

Basically I want to get away with the smallest system possible to use as the effects processor..3-4 SB's live's. I assumed that given the fact all effects are handled by the 10K1 Chips.. The system can be of very low powered with a low amount of RAM. I want to build a small special case for it..etc...This is going to be a special project. I even have a line on 6" LCD screens. Maybe some one will get back to me at the absolute minimum system requirments. 98SE system probably... I just keep coming up with ideas and writing them down...your a great help..thx for the input, if you think of anything else let me know...

Daniel Drummond · Jun 27, 2005, 06:23 PM

These folks here may help you out desgning custom knobs/faders to control kX mixer and kX effects parameters: http://www.ucapps.de/ or www.midibox.org

ROBSCIX · Jun 27, 2005, 06:50 PM

Actually, you read my mind, I don't think I am gonna do that right away. Thats alot of extra designing..when I could just use a mouse. This is just my first prototype to see if the concept is solid. In the end though I would love a some dedicated controls though... I would like to keep the cost down to a minimum as well. I have the electronic experience though I have looked through that site there is nothing on it that's too tricky. I just want a dedicated effects Processor for 4-6 channels of my outboard mixer. I do imagine the design and concept will change though from input and ideas etc.. I am just coming up with the basic concpet and design right now.. I have to try and keep this project from getting a mind of it's own right now...

Nappylady · Jun 28, 2005, 08:24 AM

You can build your computer as you like it, and then add custom controls later. That's the beautiful part about designing your own system :-)

When you decide you want dedicated controls, you might also look at the MIDI controllers already out there, like this one I'm just dying to get my hands on: http://www.behringer.com/FCB1010/index.cfm?lang=ENG

ROBSCIX · Jun 28, 2005, 01:41 PM

Yeah, I never thought about the custom controls for this unit..I figured I would just use the mouse..given the sheer amount of configurability.BUT I guess I could make a whole bunch of patches and use a custom built interface designed by me to control the effects unit...This thing might be pretty cool when it's done...I wouldn't be able to do any of it if it was't for KX....That Beringer controller is Nice..I was considering making one a while ago..I since decided on the effects unit as I would get more use..I guess I will build the prototype first make sure everything functions correctly..work with it for a while, then I will have a better understanding of what I need for controls for the unit. This thing won't even look like a PC when it's done.. It is gonna be very very useful. If I can have a KX DSP patched into 4 channels on my mixer..The effects possibilites are vast. The channels on my mixer have Mic Pres, 48V..etc..or I can patch in just a insturment...Just think of some of the patches I could make for a Mic channel!...This thing is gonna rock...

Maddogg6 · Jun 28, 2005, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX

This thing won't even look like a PC when it's done.. It is gonna be very very useful. If I can have a KX DSP patched into 4 channels on my mixer..The effects possibilites are vast. The channels on my mixer have Mic Pres, 48V..etc..or I can patch in just a insturment...Just think of some of the patches I could make for a Mic channel!...This thing is gonna rock...

Awesome Idea.... but, it'll still be running windows - both a blessing and a curse.

Theres a win98lite floating out there for just such reasons (I suspect). Very little resource needed to run it. Combined with the low cpu overhead of the 10Kx what a POWERFUL setup that'd be.

ROBSCIX · Jun 28, 2005, 06:57 PM

I know I was wondering about that...i'll just make a stripped down version...with autoloads etc...when it boots..it'll boot right in to FX mode. I am considering what else can be done..removing bootsplash screen, I'll put a custom image up..etc.this unit will be totally custom so I will just go from there..thats what I figured use some kind of stripped version, I guess I can look around for the lite version..or talk to some guys who know more about the OS's then me..
added note..found some info etc...maybe I will take it all the way...depends on what it costs I guess..

Maddogg6 · Jun 28, 2005, 08:21 PM

I didn't mention more about the lite version as it *may* break forum rules here doing so.

But you might want to google - 'remove IE win98' - as I recall there was a lot about that subject alone, which is 40% of the crap removal process.

Other than that, I doubt the lite version *officially* exists.

ROBSCIX · Jun 28, 2005, 08:38 PM

Actually upon further research Win98lite is a installation program to stream line paid for copies of 98, so I don't think you broke any rule as you have to pay for everything..lol. thx..it led me in a lot of helpful directions...I can now do this unit the way I imagine it.

Maddogg6 · Jun 28, 2005, 08:48 PM

Glad I could be of assistance.

Daniel Drummond · Jun 28, 2005, 10:54 PM

I've used 98lite in the past (installing 98se in 486 dx4-100 laptops with 20mb ram - ran just fine with office xp....) and it even works without a hardrive. You can even manage to install it to flash memory if you wish. There's a XPlite also, from the same author.

TheKezReturns · Jun 29, 2005, 07:56 AM

I take it you guts have seen this?
http://www.litepc.com/eos.html

ROBSCIX · Jun 29, 2005, 09:51 AM

Yeah, I considered the embeded stuff..such as EOS...make small standalone applications etc...after reading I decided against. Nice equipment and such, I just decided to go with Mini-itX Form factor..perfect...Then again I might go over it again tonight. I think they assume you'll be building more than 1 system. I have education in regards to microcontrollers and embeded systems. I just think the ITX running a super stripped down version of 98se would be perfect. I decide on a 533Mhz with a dual PCI Adapter. Possibly running two Live's. I considered Audigy's BUT if its being used for effects we all know about the 10K2 sample rate limits and such...but I still might throw in a couple..what do you guys think? Imagine KX running on a flash drive on a small board about the size of a audigy..lol, that would be a cool little system....

Nappylady · Jun 29, 2005, 02:54 PM

Whichever cards you choose, you should really try to get the Audigy cards (Audigy 1 for sure; I think Audigy 2 as well) since they have 4 usable analog inputs instead of just 2. You might not think you need this now, but you might discover later that it would be really convenient.

Maddogg6 · Jun 29, 2005, 03:51 PM

Audigys for sure.

ROBSCIX · Jun 29, 2005, 07:51 PM

Oh for sure..I was wondering if the A1's have the extra input then I'll go for that. So they have 2 Line_ins?. I guess I can use whatever output I feel like..

Maddogg6 · Jun 29, 2005, 09:16 PM

Im NOT positive ALL audigy cards have 2 line inputs - Mine does - Audigy 2 ZS Platinum (drive bay IO box) And Im pretty certain that it requires the drive box to be enabled. But Im not positive. Either way I would used the audigy 2 soley for the extra DSP resources for more complex FX setups.
I myself would probably just use each card as a stereo fx processor for the sheer managing headache it *could* be otherwise. This way, ya just 'load settings' for the FX setup for that send/recv buss. Assuming your mixer has stereo sends and recvs.

Im fairly certain added hardware would be needed to a non-platinum audigy cards to have the second line in. An added ADC I would imagine - but that may not be an issue for you.

**dj_stick** · Jun 29, 2005, 11:08 PM

my Audigy 2 ZS has the dual inputs (ac97/i2s)
as does my Audigy ES

i know that the standard Audigy 1 models also have the dual inputs.

And i think the original Audigy 2 has them aswell

Nappylady · Jun 30, 2005, 08:53 AM

I bought a SB0162 OEM for like $30 and it has both AC97 and I2S line inputs.

Having 4 inputs is sooooooooo useful!

ROBSCIX · Jun 30, 2005, 09:43 AM

I think I will just grab A2.I want the Extra DSP resources. MY send and return is mono. Oh well I have to use what I have.. Should be ordering the ITX in a few weeks. Havent decide if I am gonna get a 533 or a 1.0. I think I am gonna just get a 1.0, not that much more money.

stupidkid · Jul 2, 2005, 01:28 AM

I currently have a smaller version of this set up for our live show.

pentium 333, with 64 megs of ram, with windows 2k and a cheap sb live

I have it set up so the left line has tube sound, compression, and eq.

then thre right line in has the same thing (different settings). It runs like a dream, boot time is terrible, that eos looks like a good idea, because right now i have about a minute and thirty seconds before i get sound, i have the hard drive set to power off after 1 minute, so the comp has no need for keyboard mouse or monitor, i just pull the plug.

I'd like to see your set up when its finished, 4 cards would be cool.

ROBSCIX · Jul 2, 2005, 11:13 AM

I think your boot time is related to your choice of OS I would lose the HOG-win2000 and add something a little lighter like 98SE, would improve your boot time alot..then if you look at that program we are talking about at the top 98lite...it allows you to streamline the install..so you install ONLY what you need to get a kx card running....get your boot down to seconds...but I am glad to hear somebody has treid such a setup. the EOS, i think will be very expensive. As they want to do all developing..this is for if you would like to build a few 100 units...very pricey..BUT I found the solution in the ITX form factor..very small. Then it's all up to you and how you can customize your config..I have education in electronics as well as controllers, so I am only limited by my imagination. With the 98 you would need to shut it down. I am guessing MAYBE thats why you choose 2K....You could just map a button to your serial port..easier would be the parralel port...have a push button on your case..hit the button and the system shuts down properly..you still wouldn't need key,mouse....do you use a monitor?