sb22x - no rear and/or center/lfe output

Russ · Feb 2, 2006, 10:58 PM

Any SB022x users with STAC9758, please let me know if 3538j works for you (or more importantly, if it doesn't work for you), so I will know if my plugin is still needed.

Also, any SB022x users who had problems with 3538i, should probably try 3538j, and let Eugene know if there are still any issues related to the SB022x models.

-Russ

Russ · Feb 3, 2006, 05:19 PM

BTW: Has anyone tested the digital outputs (SPDIF) on the SB022x models with STAC9758 as of yet? I still have not had confirmation that they work, and I do not have a digital setup to test with. I did however do some basic testing by connecting the SPDIF's to CD_SPDIF IN, and there appears to be some issues:
1) Analog Rear is not muted in DOO mode.
2) I could not get a signal from Digital Rear.

I will try and do some more testing, but obviously it would be much easier for someone with a digital speaker setup (with the correct 4 pole mini jack, etc). Again this is only those SB022x models that have STAC9758.

Russ · Feb 4, 2006, 06:20 PM

After some more testing I am thinking that on these cards (SB022x with STAC9758 only), that KX_OUT(0x8)/KXOUT(0x9) are the digital rear channels, and KX_OUT(0xd)/KX_OUT(0xe) are the analog rear channels. In any case, I need to do some more testing.

Russ · Feb 11, 2006, 12:02 PM

I am not having much luck with my testing as I do not have the right equipment, and I am not sure exactly what kX is doing behind the scenes in some cases (SB022x hack option).

Anyway, here is what I have found thus far (using 3538j).

Again, this is SB022x with STAC9758 only.

In DOO mode, analog rear is not muted (AC97 register 0x36).

With SB022x hack option disabled:
---------------------------------------

Analog rear output is KX_OUT's 0x8 and 0x9 (driver translation) and 0xd and 0xe (but both sets of outputs will not work at the same time in the DSP (which is expected)).

Cannot get a signal from digital rear (digital Front/Center/LFE seem to work (DOO must be enabled (as expected))).

With SB022x hack option enabled:
---------------------------------------

No analog rear output. Can be enabled using 'sptr 5f 0 33' (BTW: The Creative Driver uses a 'sptr 5f 0 3f' setting).

Digital rear appears to be on KX_OUT's 0x8 and 0x9 (all digital outs appear to work, but I cannot test them all at the same time because I have only the one SPDIF input). (again DOO must be enabled for the Digital Outputs to work).

Analog rear appears to be on KX_OUT's 0xd and 0xe (after being enabled using the above kxctrl command).

I am not exactly sure what the SB022x hack option does, but I could not get digital rear working with 3538h (I sent Eugene an email with some questions about this, but have not heard back from him as of yet.), so it appears to be a little more then just un-doing the driver translation and using a 'sptr 5f 0 30' setting.

There also may be some issues with signal bleeding into (at least) one of the outputs (I was getting a signal on one of the digital outs (do not remember which one off hand, or which settings I was using at the time) when KX is decoding an AC3 signal, even without a connection to that output in the DSP. I did not do extensive testing with this, because of the lack of equipment (and too many unknown factors at the moment)).

Again, the method I used for testing, was to connect the SPDIF outs to CD_SPDIF In, and then used a peak plugin in the DSP (connected to CD_SPDIF In) to look for a signal.

Russ · Mar 11, 2006, 07:29 PM

Update:
I am not sure what was going on with 3538h during my testing (only thing I can think of, is that it had something to do with the fact that I was using WinME), but I installed 3534f to test some other things out, and was able to get all the outputs working (using kxctrl).

Digital Rear does appear to be KX_OUT(0x8) and KX_OUT(0x9), while analog Rear is KX_OUT(0xd) and KX_OUT(0xe).

**dj_stick** · Mar 11, 2006, 07:37 PM

Russ - some SB022x cards were similiar to the standard Live cards, seperate codecs for front and rear outputs, while others had a 6 channel DAC, perhaps yours is one with the two codecs

**Eugene Gavrilov** · Mar 11, 2006, 07:59 PM

that seems to be quite logical.
3538j performs translation of 8,9 outputs to 0xd/0xe (on the fly)
this was done to ensure microcode is cross-compatible between sb22x and other boards
since most cards use the same 8,9 outputs for digital and analog rear, that was o.k.
sb22x uses different DSP registers for analog and digital rear outputs, that's why it requires custom microcode. I can probably add support for such configurations (by updating epilog microcode instead of on-the-fly substitution)

E.

Russ · Mar 11, 2006, 08:35 PM

@dj_stick,
My card (SB0228) has the single 6 channel codec (STAC9758).

@Eugene,
Changing epilog's microcode sounds like the best option to me, but do it whatever way you think is best (I can get them working either way). Since there seems to be a few different variants of the SB022x model, I would not want it to cause problems with other people cards, considering I currently do not use the digital outputs (and it seems nobody else, with a similar model, does either).

CryptoS · Jul 14, 2006, 08:52 AM

Installed: kxdrv3538j-full_.exe

Quote:

Device Manager Info:

Quote:

Device Instance ID: PCI\VEN_1102&DEV_0002&SUBSYS_80651102&REV_0A\4&227 75069&0&4070
Hardware IDs:
PCI\VEN_1102&DEV_0002&SUBSYS_80651102&REV_0A
PCI\VEN_1102&DEV_0002&SUBSYS_80651102
PCI\VEN_1102&DEV_0002&CC_040100
PCI\VEN_1102&DEV_0002&CC_0401

Driver Date: Jan 23 2006 01:43:49
Driver Version: 5.10.00.3538 - debug
DB Name:none
SB0222 10k1 [c880]
PCI Information:
Device: 21102 Subsys: 80651102 ChipRev: a
Card has MPU device
Card model is '5.1'
Card HAS AC97 codec
Codec name: SigmaTel STAC9708
3D Extension: SigmaTel 3D Enhancement
Codec is 2.0 compliant
Capabilities[6940] :
DAC resolutions : -16-bit- -18-bit-
ADC resolutions : -16-bit- -18-bit-
Ext Capabilities [80]: -PCM surround DAC-
Port: c880 Irq: 0xa(10)
Playback buffer: 20a0
Record buffer: 4000
Number of AC3 buffers: 4
Tank memory: 256 kb
GSIF buffer: 256 samples
OS version: [2 5 1 Service Pack 2; 2 5 1 Service Pack 2; 156 148]

-------------------------
Also, I've scanned the soundcard, you can see the chips, capacitors, resistors etc and the serial numbers, etc - links to the jpegs: sblive0220chips.jpg sblive0220snum.jpg

STAC9708 Datasheet:
http://people.freenet.de/kxdev/docs/codecs/stac9708-ds.pdf

some registers sniffed with kxctrl:

Quote:

>gptr 5f 0
PTR[reg=5f; ch=0]=30

-------------------------
(AC97 registers chosen according to registers table at page 26 in datasheet)

Quote:

>gac97 0
AC97[reg=0]=6940
>gac97 2
AC97[reg=2]=0
>gac97 4
AC97[reg=4]=9f1f
>gac97 6
AC97[reg=6]=801f
>gac97 a
AC97[reg=a]=801e
>gac97 c
AC97[reg=c]=8008
>gac97 e
AC97[reg=e]=8008
>gac97 10
AC97[reg=10]=8808
>gac97 12
AC97[reg=12]=8808
>gac97 14
AC97[reg=14]=8808
>gac97 16
AC97[reg=16]=8808
>gac97 18
AC97[reg=18]=808
>gac97 1a
AC97[reg=1a]=404
>gac97 1c
AC97[reg=1c]=0
>gac97 20
AC97[reg=20]=200
>gac97 22
AC97[reg=22]=0
>gac97 26
AC97[reg=26]=f
>gac97 28
AC97[reg=28]=80
>gac97 2a
AC97[reg=2a]=80
>gac97 38
AC97[reg=38]=0
>gac97 6c
AC97[reg=6c]=e1
>gac97 74
AC97[reg=74]=0
>gac97 7c
AC97[reg=7c]=8384
>gac97 7e
AC97[reg=7e]=7608

-----------------------

Soundcard came in plastic bag, don't remember if Driver CD was inside or outside.

The problems:
1. Main problem: Front, Center & Subwoofer bleed into Rear; Also Rear right bleeds into Front Right. This/similar bleeding also is happening with Creative Drivers on Original CD given to me with the soundcard.

2. Speaker setup is set to 4.0 Quadro or 5.1 Direct Path - clicking "swap front<->rear" results in missing sound from rear plug. (problem occurs in swapped mode)

3. When using ASIO, rear volume control is not working. Front comes from ASIO 4/5, rear comes from ASIO 8/9. (ASIO Control Panel settings default - format is 16bit/48KHz, [16+16])
With this ASIO setup aslo the swap rear<->front just disables the front output and does not change the Rear output. (problem occurs in swapped mode)

Feature Suggestion/Question: hotkey to change the swap rear<->front mode (also to work in ASIO mode).

How to fix the sound bleeding?

Please help, thanks.

CryptoS · Jul 14, 2006, 01:11 PM

These problems have been with me for years and have stopped me from playing on parties with the PC etc.

I have an ordinary variable resistor on the headphones (volume control). It seems that when it's at 5% or so the bleeding in the front is really minimized. And when it's at 0% the bleeding is mostly noticeable. (With the headphones connected to the Rear output and the amp to the front output).

Maybe some of you use low watt amps and speakers and can not notice the bleeding. But at a party when the PC is connected to 2KW+... it's another story.

Could this bleeding be a hardware as well as software problem?

CryptoS · Jul 14, 2006, 01:30 PM

Anyway the bleeding front->rear_right seems to be constant - with plugged and with unplugged amp in the front., with stripped kX DSP, with Surrounder (instead of Surrounder+)....

Russ · Jul 14, 2006, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CryptoS

Front comes from ASIO 4/5, rear comes from ASIO 8/9.

ASIO 8/9 (FxBus (8/9) is directed to Center/LFE under the default config (and the 5.1 Direct Path Surrounder preset). Use ASIO 6/7 as the output (in your ASIO host software) that you want to be sent to the rear, or use a custom DSP setup.

I would start with a minimal DSP, (no surrounder, no reverb or chorus, etc) and see if you still get bleeding.

i.e.
Clear the DSP,
Load Fxbus and epilog only. Connect FxBus 4/5 to epilog front, 6/7 to rear, 8/9 to center/LFE.
Test and see if you still get bleeding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CryptoS

Anyway the bleeding front->rear_right seems to be constant - with plugged and with unplugged amp in the front., with stripped kX DSP, with Surrounder (instead of Surrounder+)....

I had previously noticed that under some settings (Surrounder) with VRearW > 0, sound bleeds into the rear right channel. Make sure VRearW is set to 0.

CryptoS · Jul 14, 2006, 02:09 PM

even with the STEREO ONLY (front only) Creative SB Live! Series (WDM) Driver that comes with WinXP, dating 2001.07.01 ver. 5.1.2535 (c) Micro$oft

the front->rear_right bleeding is still there

Thanks Russ

, I'm off to installing KX again and testing again.

(all reinstallations done with "Remove" function of KX, then with Uninstall, then with Driver Cleaner).

CryptoS · Jul 14, 2006, 02:49 PM

The bleeding is still there - cleared DSP, added only FXBus and epilog, connected 4/5 to Front and 6/7 to Rear as instructed. Bleeding from Front->Rear_right is stronger, bleeding from rear->front is weaker.

Russ · Jul 14, 2006, 04:02 PM

Hmm, how are you testing this?
You might try loading the Wave Generator 3 plugin, and connect the Sine output directly to each epilog ouput one at a time and see if you hear the signal in more than one speaker (i.e. connect it to front left and test, then front right and test, etc). Also, download the latest ProFX package and test using kxlt instead of epilog. Additionally, you can connect one of the ProFX : Peak plugins to FxBus 4/5/6/7/8/9 and view the signals on the peak meter to see if it is bleeding at that point.

Are you sure the wires (speaker/headphones) are not shorted to each other anywhere? Another thing to check is that nothing is shorting together any of the traces on the card (you never know).

Beyond that, I do not know, it may be a hardware problem considering that it happens with both kX and the CL driver.

BTW: Hold down the ALT key to make single connections in the DSP window.

CryptoS · Jul 15, 2006, 02:08 AM

With the default DSP, Surrounder+ set to 5.1 Direct Path, and two additional Peak plugins attached to Surrounder+ Rear and Center/Subwoofer outputs - tested again with the software I have been testing - Virtual DJ v3.4 in ASIO mode and in DX mode (4.1 mode in VDJ).

Peaks show that there is no bleeding at that point. (dB meters say Inf and no colored bars appear). If Peak is a trustworthy plugin in this matter, the problem is either in epilog, kx.sys or something shorting some pins directly on the soundcard. Or could it also be a problem coming from card being at the lowest PCI slot and it being at IRQ 18?

Will investigate further.... Will also test kx 3534f, 3535, 3536 to see if it's the same there.

P.S. trying ProFX now... Done. Cleared DSP, added FXBus, ProFX:k1lt and ProFX:Peak8, connected them to FXBus 4/5, 6/7, 8/9 - Peak8 shows No colored bars when there should be No sound so I assume bleeding does not occur at that point. Also in the headphones (all test doing now with only headphones connected, no amp/other cables) I can hear the same bleeding. Also not only the front bleeds into the Rear_right. Also the Center/Subw bleeds there.

CryptoS · Jul 15, 2006, 03:47 AM

KX Setting seems to be left after "Remove", Uninstall and Driver Cleaner, for example: the Peak plugin is horizontal as I have set it to be in the previous installation (ver. 3538j). Now I've installed 3534f and the bleeding is pretty much the same as far as I have tested it.

Also I unplugged the card, removed all stickers, cleaned it with alcohol 95%, cleaned it with water and dishwashing liquid, dried it up good, ran air through it to to dry it etc. and plugged it into the upper PCI slot.

In the proccess I saw no strange things on the board - no pins seems to be faultly connected in some way.

How can I really really cleanly reinstall the KX drivers ? Because as far as I remember there was no bleeding when I first tryed the kx version that didn't support the Center/Subw output. Wich version was that and how do I install it really clean? thanks.

Also with cleared DSP with only FXBus and three Peaks connected to 4/5, 6/7, 8/9 and VDJ set to 4.1 (option output 7.1 clicked) I can hear what would be the rear in the headphones ? How come ? The DSP is cleared. Should be something like - 7.1 output puts signal in some of them odd KX Wave Ins I'm not familiar with and the driver does not work correctly with it and bleeds heavily/routes the signal to the Rear output.

Yes, tested - with kx 3534f (apparantly not reinstalled really clean although used all uninstall options and Driver Cleaner) the bleeding is the same as always - really weak Rear->front anr stronger Front->Rear_Right ONLY, there is no bleeding in the Left.

CryptoS · Jul 15, 2006, 04:22 AM

Yes, that old version I was talkin'bout earlier must've been 3528 - I have it on CD.. hopefully... Yes got it, will install it now...

Also is such a scenario possible:

Somewhere in the past along my testing frenzys...
Me trying different drivers, different Creative updates and all kinds of BS I find on the net, and some of it flashes some kind of firmware on the SoundBlaster? Is this possible? Maybe Creative makes it's updates automatically flash the firmware ? If there is such on this board.... ?

CryptoS · Jul 15, 2006, 05:15 AM

Tests with 3528 complete - bleeding the same - at this point I think the card has either been defective from the beginning or has broke on some of the parties where the amps were not that reliable and could've fried the card.

OR if it has firmware - it's has been wrongly flashed....

P.S. front <-> center/subw separations seems good, bleeding is really minimal. I'm switching to using the center/subw output instead of the Rear one. I have also reqested support from Creative by e-mail and will take the soundcard to a hardware freak guru to have a look at the smd BS on it.

Anyone has any further ideas?

Russ · Jul 15, 2006, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CryptoS

Maybe some of you use low watt amps and speakers and can not notice the bleeding. But at a party when the PC is connected to 2KW+... it's another story.

Do you only notice the bleeding when greatly amplifying the signal? Aside from having a different model card from you, I have never connected it to such an amplifier, so I cannot say for sure that my card does not exhibit the same behavior under the same circumstances.

CryptoS · Jul 15, 2006, 01:12 PM

As I have stated in some of those posts all test after the first two or three are done with headphones only so the bleeding can be heard with the headphones. It's enough to screw things up if I want to use the Front output for the power amps at the party ant the Rear output for the Headphones (or vice versa) to hear and sync the incoming track before it goes on air.

Russ · Jul 24, 2006, 11:50 AM

@Eugene,
I noticed that you did include both sets of outputs in epilog for the rear channels (analog 0xd/0xe, digital 0x8/0x9) for my card, in 3538k, however I have not had a chance to test the digital outputs as of yet (analog outputs still work correctly). I will let you know the results when I have had a chance to test them.

-Russ

Russ · Jul 25, 2006, 05:23 PM

Ok, I tested all the outputs and they all appear to work.

A couple of minor things:

1) Analog rear (AC97 register 36) is still not muted/unmuted when toggling DOO mode.

2) Personally, I would prefer a seperate connection for analog/digital rear, so that I could send a seperate signal to either one, if I so desired (technically I can use analog front/rear, and digital front/rear, and digital center/lfe, independently, and all at the same time (analog center/lfe is the only one that is shared, and thus cannot be used when the digital outputs are enabled)). This is not a big deal, as I can do this myself, and I suppose that you did it this way to keep it more like other models. The important thing is that they all work.

-Russ

<edit>
I just noticed new info under kX's 'About...':
"Card requires SB22x hack"
Does this refer to the "SB22x hack Enabled" option under "Driver Compatibility"?
If so, than that is not correct, as this card works without that option enabled (with it enabled, I would lose analog rear). I enabled it under previous testing (maybe I confused you with that), only to undo the 3538j driver translation of KX_OUT 0x8/0x9, so that I could test the rear digital out, but it was not necessary for the analog outs to work correctly (i.e. this card needs the "sptr 5f 0 33" setting, and the "SB22x hack Enabled" option does not use that setting (I adjusted that setting manually under previous 3538j testing)). Sorry for any confusion, but 3538j's driver translation feature made it more complicated, so maybe you mis-understood my reasoning for enabling the SB22x hack option when testing.

To be clear, with 3538k (and the changes made to epilog for my card), all the outputs (analog and digital) work with my card, without enabling the SB22x hack option.

----Hardware / Software configuration---------------
Driver Name:kX Audio Driver (Debug)
Driver Date: Jul 24 2006 02:43:25
Driver Version: 5.10.00.3538 - debug
DB Name:none
SB022xa 10k1 [a000]
PCI Information:
Device: 21102 Subsys: 80661102 ChipRev: a
Card has MPU device
Card model is '5.1'
Card requires SB22x hack
Card HAS AC97 codec
Codec name: SigmaTel STAC9758
3D Extension: SigmaTel 3D Enhancement
Codec is 2.0 compliant
Capabilities[6a90] : -headphone out-
DAC resolutions : -16-bit- -20-bit-
ADC resolutions : -16-bit- -20-bit-
Ext Capabilities [bc7]: -var rate PCM audio- -2x PCM audio out- -PCM center DAC- -PCM surround DAC- -PCM LFE DAC- -slot/DAC mappings-
Port: a000 Irq: 0x12(18)
Playback buffer: 20a0
Record buffer: 4000
Number of AC3 buffers: 4
Tank memory: 256 kb
GSIF buffer: 256 samples
OS version: [2 5 1 Service Pack 2; 2 5 1 Service Pack 2; 156 148]
</edit>

**Eugene Gavrilov** · Aug 1, 2006, 07:24 PM

thanks for your report
--
separate outputs: this will make settings for sb22x incompatible. so, yes, the main concern is compatibility, not functionality. everyone can use epilog_lt instead
--
DOO: thanks for pointing this out. will fix that.
--
'Card requires SB22x hack': this actually means, the hack for sb22x is currently active

the option in the control panel does not 'enable' it, it switches between enabled/disabled state
so, if it is 'enabled' by default, checking this option will turn the hack -off-

Russ · Aug 1, 2006, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eugene Gavrilov

'Card requires SB22x hack': this actually means, the hack for sb22x is currently active

the option in the control panel does not 'enable' it, it switches between enabled/disabled state
so, if it is 'enabled' by default, checking this option will turn the hack -off-

Ahh, ok, good to know.

Thanks,
-Russ

Russ · Sep 22, 2006, 09:41 PM

I did not retest the digital outputs (it is kind of a pain to do) in 3538L, but I think it is probably safe to assume that they still work (at some point I will check it), but I did verify that the DOO mode switch does now mute/unmute the analog channels correctly.

I think this means that maybe this card is now fully supported (at least as far as other 10k1 cards are supported), and maybe this thread no longer needs to be stickied?

Thanks Eugene,
-Russ

**Eugene Gavrilov** · Sep 26, 2006, 07:02 PM

I guess I forgot to fix doo issue

Russ · Sep 26, 2006, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eugene Gavrilov

I guess I forgot to fix doo issue

Huh?
I said that is does appear to work correctly now.

**Eugene Gavrilov** · Sep 29, 2006, 02:25 PM

cannot keep every CL model in mind all the time

niklz · Sep 16, 2007, 11:40 AM

hiya i have a problem with one of these cards, ive tried reading thru all the thread but theres alot there and my problem seems to be slightly different.

heres hardware

----Hardware / Software configuration---------------
Driver Name:kX Audio Driver (Debug)
Driver Date: Aug 24 2007 17:27:15
Driver Version: 5.10.00.3539 - debug
DB Name:none
SB022xa 10k1 [a000]
PCI Information:
Device: 21102 Subsys: 80661102 ChipRev: a
Card has MPU device
Card model is '5.1'
Card requires SB22x hack
Card HAS AC97 codec

and i have no output from center or sub while on the test screen, im also using Creative DT3500 speaker set up

any ideas? please explain as much as u can cuz im not experienced with kxctrl.exe :P

thx in advance

niklz