TravelRec.

Hi all there!

Now it´s time to make some things a little different:

A new device for expandation of all soundcards with optical input capabilities is about to get alive. The first prototype of an 18Bit analogue to (optical) SPDIF - converter (stand alone) device is runnig properly here. This device is able to convert nominal stereo line levels into an optical data stream to be connected with optical input devices of any soundcard model that supports SPDIF interfaces. With other words: with 3 of these devices you are able to make an 8 mono multitrack ASIO-recording with a single card like Live! or Audigy or (if connecting will be known) Audigy2. The first test readings you can see at:

www.electricstart.de (under electronics -> Analogue to SPDIF - converter project)

And sorry for my english there - it´s not my favourite language. All comments of you are welcome, so reply here if you want. I think - the single hook (I can see yet) is the price of such a device, ´cause the electronic parts are a bit expensive (I think around 50 Euros for a complete device plus shipping costs) - but finally you don´t have to hook up a second or a third soundcard to get what you want - especially in ASIO mode. And the devices are really small (like a cigarrettes box) so you can put them into a small sized room . And at last the project is open to make perhaps a device that meets exactly your special desires...

So it´s on you to deceide!

Greetings and regards!

TravelRec.

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S_Milton

Congratulations Travelrec !!!!

And very impressive audio performance in the RMAA.

Certainly is a cool device.

What did you use ? a CS5330A? some time ago I was wandering how good the performance of this will be. (I have followed yours posts here)

BTW the friend at http://www.beis.de/Elektronik/ADDA2496/AD2496.html
Updated the page with performance data. (The performance is better than yours, but the circuit is much more difficult to build)

Congratulations again (and thanks for your web site many of us have used it in the past)

MS

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MS

TravelRec.

Hi!

Thanks for the flowers ! Some tests today gave just slightly better results, due to better resistors I´ve used today; update @ the site will follow. And yes, you are not far away - I use the CS 5331 A, which is I2S compatible (direct connecting with AUD_EXT I will testing later - if more time is available). The project of Mr. Beis is known to me and I know, he has better performance on it (no wonder - it´s a 24Bit machine and it´s more flexible but really more expensive and no way to get the superior parts in any natural way... ). But I try to make A/D conversion possible for general using of the SPDIF interfaces on any newer soundcard - and try to hold the money low. The biggest problem here is to get the parts for a reasonable charge. The more you take - the cheaper the parts - but I can´t store yet hundreds of ICs for thousands of Euros only to lower the price. So, unfortunately there is an aspect to think twice - but the performance-parameters speak their own language! If some people want to get these converter thing (or want to build one itself), please reply here that I know what I can do next time!

Greetings!

TravelRec.

P.S 2004-03-21 Site updated with new measurements and new pics - take a look...

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Kongio

Excellent work!!

Do you think you could make your schematic & parts list available on your site? That would be great.

Also would be interesting to see it working when connected to AUD_EXT

I'll check back on your website regularly!

Congratulations BTW!

Regards
Kongio

TravelRec.

Hi!

Okay, I´ll make it soon. But you should buy now a very very small solder tip, halogenic-free solder wire and a package of valium for soldering the smd-parts . All further comments you´ll find at the webside under the point "How to build..." (coming soon).

CU!

TravelRec.

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Doug W

TravelRec,

Cool project. For the ignorant among us, like myself, could you clarify what type of signals you are sending to the 3 TORX179 inputs. Don't they need a digital signal or am I misunderstanding these devices?

Please lead me out of the woods.

Thanks,
Doug

S_Milton

Doug W:

I think you made the same mistake I did when visited the page
the first time:

The circuit we are talking is in "Analogue to SPDIF - Converter project" (with a yellow background) It seems like a headline but is the link.

You must have clicked on "Application circuit to connect 6 digital INs and OUTs at the AUD_EXT-Connector" wich is the Second link in the page.

The first time I had the same confussion


TravelRec:

Sugestion: remove the yellow background (since you use it in other parts of web site as a header people don´t spect it to be a link) I didn´t even read it the first time I was on the page.

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MS

S_Milton

You did not use it as header in other part as header, but anyway it looks like one

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MS

Doug W

S_Milton,

Thanks I see my mistake now.

Doug

TravelRec.

Hi all!

Thanks for the suggestions - I will make the links more obvious next time (with nice animated gifs - if I have a bit time again), but now please use the backgrounded "underlined" lines as a link!. BTW: Site is updated now with a guide and the PCB-Layouts to make a converter thing for itself. For all those people who have the courage to try: GOOD LUCK! All others, they don´t want to attach microscopic parts and burn out the fingertips - order your converter here or via contact form @ electricstart and I will try to make and ship it to you. But I don´t know yet what will happen on the way (is it safe enough), what´s the price for shipping and so on. Here in europe this should be not a big problem but outside - I don´t know. If you are in germany - there is absolutely no problem. But I fear, many of you are far away - so maybe you have a friend with the knowledge to make one...

Greetings!

TravelRec.

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dj_stick

it's nice to know that people live travelrec here are willing to help those who want more out of their soundblaster cards

thank you

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Eneen

TravelRec, http://alive.singnet.com.sg/musician/aps-rewiring/ there is i2s connection, its quite easy to make, but I think that clock for second slave ADC could come from 2 and 3 pins of first (master) ADC, and it will be possible to add third ADC, also as slave. I'll get samples of 5331 soon and try to make it. I also think that for audigy PCM1802 is better choice, but I don't know how to wire it...

TravelRec.

Hi!

Yes, you are right so far - my project is similar built like the one you said - with the exception that output is SPDIF for use with any input that is not I2S compatible. The direct I2S connetion I´ll try later if I have a bit money for the ICs. I also want to try a circuitry to make SPDIF to I2S conversion for 2 more optical inputs to get 5 digital stereo inputs on each card that have AUD_EXT to use external A/D with optical connection for maximum noise and hum immunity between sound- and computersystem. So stay tuned - and thanks for your support!

TravelRec.

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dj_stick

i think I2S is the harder of the 2 formats to use, due to the need for a clock source… unless it can be run of the 24.9 or mhz from the crystal on the card, what do we do from there?

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Eneen

i2s requires less components and adc can be directly connected do emu chip, cos adc uses i2s. But on audigy one i2s is taken by philips adc...
Anyway I wonder where is third spdif... According to technical reference cdromi is shared with gpspdifin2, I can see 3 spdifs on ac3 decode and spdif direct recording list boxes but I cand find so many connectors onboard... Even emu chip has 2 spdif inputs... What's wrong?

Eneen

Ok than zs_video is third one I've just bought audigy_0230, had live before, so why I was confused

TravelRec.

On AUD_EXT pin 4 is a crystal based frequency available 24,xxx Mhz called AC97 Clock - you can divide this by 2 (using f.e. 74HC74) and use it as master clock for your ADCs. Note: I2S on AUD_EXT are inputs so your (first) ADC should be set as a MASTER. If you want to use 2nd ADC, connect this one as SLAVE and let it be controlled by the first ADC.

Greetings!

TravelRec.

P.S.: Please post your experiences here!

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TravelRec.

Hmmm, seen this also. But where are the inputs of the Philips? Can I access them without any mods on the card or kx???

Greetings!

TravelRec.

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S_Milton

TravelRec:

Well, the phillips UDC is connected to I2S 01 (marked AC97-2 on mixer)
I don't know if there is access directly to the inputs (other than the trick hacked by Eugene and Pzmt here Audigy 2 ZS mic and line question which re-directs the line input to the UDC)

CREATIVE has a card called "Optical Digital I/O Card II" http://us.creative.com/products/prod...=16&product=30
that adds a Second line in which works with Live! And Audigy1 (the latter HAS a UDC on-board but I think the Live! Doesn?t so the I/O card must have the UDC in it, this is consonant with the fact that the others cards from Hoontech etc. doesn?t have that second line in, avoiding to use an extra ADC) http://images.americas.creative.com/...ctl_1_1_61.gif
My theory is that the internal UDC in the Audigy1 gets wasted when used with this add-on
Card (or maybe not since the original drivers seem to use it for the line in 1, as with the AC97-2 trick, in order to get that wonderful SNR levels they print)

The Audigy1 Ex Drive uses I2S 00 to the Line2/Mic2 input and I2S 02 to Aux2 input

B.T.W.: the UDC is way better than the AC97 CODEC the difference between using and not using the AC97-2 for the line in is around 9-8 dB less in the noise floor (peak) so thanks Eugene for that.

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MS

S_Milton

UDC = UDA Phillips

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MS

TravelRec.

Hi S_Milton!

Thanks for your input again, I think I will test all possibilities if I have the necessary hardware here - if you are faster, feel free to be the first one! Eneen is also on the way to test. But about the Philips-UDA I really don´t know anything. It seems, creative dosen´t know also nothing and added the part only for a better feeling . The complete documentation of all in´s and out´s will follow then if all facts are collected. If you have facts - give it here!

CU!

TravelRec.

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Eneen

S_Milton, uda is connected on ac97 output, access to it is only via ac97 analog part (sigmatel really sucks, f** s**, it is disaster of audigy card) so even if U record via uda it goes through sigmatel, so U can't access directly uda. Do U have uda on Ur A1_ex? If U don't i2s input is wasted. I have A1_oem and I have uda, it is hooked to i2s_1 (ac97_2) so I have only two i2s inputs free to attach adcs, so I'm gonna to use those two only.
There is ADC on _every_ ANALOG line_in, so if addon has analog line_in there have to be ADC, it is not using uda from audigy. ADCs on every extension board are connected to i2s bus inputs on AUD_EXT, and that way U get line2 (i2s_0) and aux2 (i2s_2). Look at audigy2_ex: it has 3 line inputs on drive and ofcourse it has no UDA On live there are also 3 i2s inputs, all free. U can use spdifs, as TravelRec did, it's very good way, cos it's possible to connect external ADCs (out of computer box). There are also 3 spdifs, but they are SHARING i2s bus, so U can use spidifs OR i2s, all the time tree total.
I have UDA onboard so I'm gonna check what happends when I try to use UDA (i2s_1) and gpspdif1

dj_stick

this increase of i/o is really taking off

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Kongio

Yeah, this is really good.

My first idea, after having seen Travelrec's optical i/o extension was to try and build a unit which would utilise all the possible inputs & outputs of the card. I.e. like a breakout box with all ADC/DAC contained within.

Looks like it might become reality after all!

Great thread guys

Cheers
Kongio

S_Milton

Take a look at this:

Image (circuit) http://www.sblive.narod.ru/SPDIFtoI2S/SPDIFtoI2S.gif
Page (Russian) http://www.sblive.narod.ru/SPDIFtoI2S/SPDIFtoI2S.htm

The page is in Russian but I think the information on it is enough to get started.
At the bottom of page will find details for connection with I2S_IN special plug present on some cards ( for DVD audio on some old Creative hardware) and (most important) to connect to AUD_EXT

For I2S 02 they point this:

31 SDATA (02) , 33 SDATA (01) , 35 SDATA (00) , 37 BIT CLOCK , 39 FRAME SYNC , 40 GND (, 1 +5V).

For I2S 00: Pin 35
For I2S 01: Pin 33

Also take notice of the diferent names for same things:

Sound Data= SDATA , DATA , SD - ?????? ???????

Bit Clock= BCLK , SCK , BCK , SCLK , BITCLK - ???????? ???????

Frame Sync= FSYNC , LRCLK , LRCK , FRAME , FRAME SYNC - ????????????? ??????? ???????

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MS

S_Milton

>> feel free to be the first one

Many thanks, but I don?t feel like it

It?s a long story, but more or less a year ago, searched the net and looked at some interesting possibilities with this ( I was recovering from delicate surgery)
now I am just passing the info to the right man.

It is nice when you see others build yours wildest dreams.

Right now I don?t have the time (have to work after a year wasted) the need (have an Audigy Platium Ex, so I have more inputs than really need) or ability ( lost sensibility in left hand )

Sorry if I sounded pushy or competitive in the past, not my intention

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MS

TravelRec.

Hi S_Milton!

Thanks anyway - no problem. My only problem to build the things quickly is the limitation in time and the problem to get all necessary parts for testing (´cos the´re too expensive for storing them all). So the time will tell. But all people (Eneen!) who want to test or support this project, can give their input here and I`ll collect it all at the site. My own experiences I´ll make public as soon as possible - major updates I´ll report here. If finally my card is running well with all possible inputs then I release all datas about it and open a bottle of champagne for all !!!

TravelRec.

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S_Milton

Hi Eneen

>> uda is connected on ac97 output, access to it is only via ac97 analog part

All of us though that until Pzmt brought some info and Eugene incorporated that in v. 3537
You could re-route the signal using kxcrl (in command line mode)
In my case (Audigy1) I use:

kxctrl -shw 19 1
kxctrl -sac97 2 0

This disconnect line_in from AC97 and connects it to UDA
(evidence that this works is that the noise floor drops 9 dB)

Check this thread for complete history (is long but good info) :Audigy 2 ZS mic and line question
Also check changelog for Version 5.00.3537 and Version 5.00.3533 on kx site
http://kxproject.lugosoft.com/change...nguage=en#3537
http://kxproject.lugosoft.com/change...nguage=en#3533

With this trick you could, e.g., record Mic in and Line_IN in two independent stereo tracks simultaneously with the proper ASIO setup. (it was impossible to do some months ago)

>> There are also 3 spdifs, but they are SHARING i2s bus, so U can use spidifs OR i2s, all the time tree total.

Think you are right in all but I am not so sure on this one (I think that there are 2 independent spdif on the 10k chip itself) so you will have 2+3 = 5 independent stereo inputs, but don?t have the references at hand (will check)

And we could not forget the drivers part, which could activate/deactivate routings and given the speed that Eugene & Co. have, the documentation is always way behind (I am sure that the drivers have much more capabilities that are known only to a handful, but that is the nature of things)

BTW check this link
Image of circuit http://crosstudio0.tripod.com/SBliveTTT/pics/adc.gif
Page http://crosstudio0.tripod.com/SBliveTTT/down.html

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TravelRec.

Hi!

Have ordered SPDIF to I2S coding IC, as soon as I receive it, I will test and comment!

Happy weekend!

TravelRec.

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Eneen

TravelRec: PCM1800 series on the way, should be next week I think

S_Milton: Yep, I've used it, works just great.
See this part of pzmt's message: "default is mix output from AC97 routed to front speaker, and Philips ADC is connected to this mix(this bypass DSP)."
and part of Eugene's message: "the signal path seems to be: line-in -> ac97 codec -> [line-in unmuted, master level unmuted*] -> philips i2s ADC -> 'AC97.2'"
I mean that we always record through ac97, ofcourse not by ac97_adc but by uda. The fact is that there is much less noise and lower distortions

We can't get more than 3 stereo sources at once on 10k1, see this (from 10k1 docs):
"AC-3 I2 S. The AC-3 I2 S input on interface 22 is asynchronously sample rate converted, typically from 22, 44, or external 48 KHz to the local 48 KHz rate, and routed to six input channels. This conversion shares the same sample rate converter used by CD SPDIF interface 14, GP SPDIF interface 16 and Z video interface 18. (...) When enabled in six channel mode, the AC-3 interface will take over the Z video, the CD audio, and the GP SPDIF interfaces. Channels 0 and 1 will be routed to the Z video interface, channels 2 and 3 to the CD audio, and channels 4 and 5 to GP SPDIF input. Data applied to the Z video inputs will be ignored; data applied to the CD audio and GP SPDIF inputs will be correctly reflected in the associated channel status registers and associated inputs, but the audio portion of these interfaces will instead present the AC-3 data."

...and from kx help:
Line2/Mic2 cannot be used simultaneously with onboard i2s.
AUX2 cannot be used simultaneously with Optical/Coaxial SPDIF in (except in Bypass mode).

But on 10k2 situation is different. I've tested: all 3 spdifs work (z_video is third one, I'm not sure if it is i2s with spdif converter). It seems that spdifs on 10k2 are not shared with i2s. If they had been shared with i2s one of spdifs wouldn't have been working because there is uda on i2s_1.
Anyway if it is true we can really have 5 external stereo inputs at once on audigy 3 spdifs and 2 i2s'
Check on Ur A_ex if when U use line2 and aux2 U can also use optical/coaxial spdif. That will be proof.