mark007

Hi all,

I have just setup a new pc with a new Samsung HDTV. The TV has a latency of about 30ms in its current mode. I am trying to come up with a driver level audio delay so everything from games to movies are in sync.

I tried adding an effect/plugin called delay to the DSP but it doesn't look like what I need. I just need a dialog to allow me to enter "30ms" and everything is delayed by that amount.

I am also curious whether the "Playback Buffer Size" setting in the kx drivers will have an impact on the amount of delay I should add?

Thanks all and OMG I seriously love these drivers..... Got em working in windows 7, the 3541 version.

Max M.

"TheDelay" plugin is what you need

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mark007

Thank you, but which is the correct one "Delay A" or "Delay B". Neither of these plugins give delay in ms, but percent instead.... I assume this is not the delay plugin you refer to?

Max M.

No, not "Delay A" or "Delay B" (these are delay effects for musical purposes)
search for the plugin with exact "TheDelay" title (this is a "pure" delay filter)

p.s. "TheDelay" is in the "FX Pack" - make sure you installed it with the driver.

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mark007

Sorry to annoy, and thanks for the tips, but I have reinstalled 3541 with the fx pack, and have lots of new filters now. I cannot see "TheDelay" anywhere. I am right clicking my dsp, and clicking add Effect/Plugin. There are lots now, but ..... can't see it.... am I looking in the wrong place?

Thanks Max!

Max M.

it's pretty strange - afair "TheDelay" is included in the driver since v.3538j

>I am right clicking my dsp, and clicking add Effect/Plugin.

Yep, should be right there (somewehere at the bottom)
Could you make a screenshot of your "Add Effect/Plugin" menu?

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peate

You need to scroll down the list to see it.

mark007

Thanks guys, did a complete reinstall of the drivers, and found it

Seems it wasn't worth my while as the dsp has no effect on anything as I am using wave out hq...... any workarounds for this... Its a lovely simple little plugin though, would love to attach 5 of them and have them work in waveouthq

Maddogg6

any 'kx' based workaround will involve routing Wave HQ into the DSP with the 'P16V' plug in - which is resampled to 48Khz when it enters the DSP .. at that point you may as well just use the other wave device(s).

Another workaround is with software... a program that delays the audio. You didn't mention any particulars about how you are using Wave HQ - so if you are using some media player application, that application would need the ability to do the delay, or perhaps a plugin for that application.

Did you at least try with the other kX Wave device and the DSP? maybe you wont notice the difference not using Wave HQ.?

Btw, the Wave HQ device uses the P16V hardware device, it is not a DSP and is why much routing capabilities are lost when using it. The P16V plug in routs Wave HQ playback into the DSP - keeping in mind that this can get mixed with original Wave HQ playback - look at the kX 24/96 router for what I mean about this.

mark007

Hi Thanks for the reply.

The reason i use driver 3541 is because later versions don't let me use wave out hq in vista. The reason i use wave out hq is because in vista, using any of the other outputs gives a machine gun type sound. It has happened since i upgraded to this intel Core i7 and Asus Rampage ii motherboard.

Reinstallation of os and drivers didn't fix this issue. On my older AMD machine wave out hq worked fine but i couldn't find a way to get the drivers to do stereo to stereo x2 for me (map front speakers to back on stereo content) unless i used the AC3 output device, but on my new board that also gives the machine gun effect, extremely loud bang bang bang bang noise.. can't stop it.

So wave out hq has been my only option using my audigy 2, and now its definitely the only option on my new motherboard. I have used ffdshows audio delay for movies and it works fine, about 45ms delay gets my audio and video perfectly in sync. The only problem now is things like youtube, and games.. the delay is actually noticible.

I really am not sure what to do... i don't want to upgrade to any of these cards like the ASUS HDAV Deluxe either because of reportedly bad drivers in vista.... my audigy 2 and kx has been the best combination of card and drivers i have had yet... Its just this new LCD has such a bad delay that i need to get these kx drivers to give me a delay on all 5 channels.

In summary all i want is
stereo content to be mapped to rear speakers
45ms delay on all speakers

Thats it

Russ

It sounds like your only real option is to use WaveHQ with the p16V plugin, so that you can use DSP effects with WaveHQ. Maddogg6 (or someone else) should be able to explain how to configure the 24/96 router correctly (if you do not know how to do so yourself).

mark007

I don't want to waste anyones time but it would be fantastic if someone could explain it. Thanks alot guys!!

Russ

I do not have WaveHQ myself, so I do not know all the details but:

There is a guide that Maddogg6 made here:
MD6 - Understanding kX Wave HQ

I think you just need to disconnect the outputs from P16V/HQ in the 24/96 router (so the signal that bypasses the DSP does not go to the speakers (I assume this is possible?)), and add the delay plugins in the DSP, somewhere between the p16V plugin and epilog (maybe between Surrounder and epilog (this way, the kX Synth's would be delayed too)).

Hopefully Maddogg6 or someone else can give you more specific info.

<edit>
Hmm, looking at the default DSP config picture in MD6's guide, it appears that the only WaveHQ path (in the DSP) is through the Reverb and Chrous plugins. If this is the case, you might want to use a custom DSP config, that allows you to bypass those effects if you want to.
</edit>

mark007

I will try to figure it out incase Mad Dog isn't around. I usually disable reverb and chorus as I notice a slight, very slight hiss when both are enabled... Maybe this was just when using non wave out hq though.. thanks. Ill keep trying

Maddogg6

Yeah - the Default DSP utilizes the P16V plugin to only added those effects Russ mentioned to Wave HQ playback. In this a custom DSP is definitly needed.

I'll post a pic of a custom DSP in a few...

mark007

I appreciate it I can worry about stereo -> stereo x2 at a later stage, the delay is most important right now! Thanks!

Edit: Just thinking, if I can get wave out hq routed into the DSP then maybe the surrounder can get my stereo x 2 back which I usually did by turning VCenterA to 0 and VRearW to 0 in the surrounder.

Russ

That is easy enough to do too... For that, you would just need to make sure that the p16V front outputs are routed to InL/InR of Surrounder, then you can just set Surrounder to 4.0 Copy mode (and if you are not using the regular kX Wave devices anyway, you might as well connect p16V to the top pins of xrouting instead of FxBus).

Of course there are other ways to do it, but I think that would be the easiest (while still mainting the rest of the default routing).

Maddogg6

This is a basic DSP config to only accomplish what you (originally) asked, only I connected all physical outputs on Epilog, so it does not matter what connector your speakers are connected to.

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/416...hedelayob4.gif

edit: of course connecting surrounder is simple enough too.

Maddogg6

Heres one with surrounder..
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8156/...urroundjt9.gif

edit: to better explain the P16V plugin....

Like kX Wave 0/1 - Wave HQ is 'multi-cahnnel' capable - it can decode AC3 for surround movies for instance - or like in winamp with a up-mix plugin.

As I mentioned in the pic - it is affected by the Swap FRONT <> REAR switch on kX Mixer Master page.
When Swap is enabled - the top and bottom pins of the P16V plugin get swapped.
So:
Swap disabled:
Pin 1 = Front Left
Pin 2 = Front Right
Pin 3 = Center
Pin 4 = LFE
Pin 5 = Headphone L (Audigy Drive)
Pin 6 = Headphone R (Audigy Drive)
Pin 7 = Rear Left
Pin 8 = Rear Right.

Swap Enabled:
Pin 1 = Rear Left
Pin 2 = Rear Right.
Pin 3 = Center
Pin 4 = LFE
Pin 5 = Headphone L (Audigy Drive)
Pin 6 = Headphone R (Audigy Drive)
Pin 7 = Front Left
Pin 8 = Front Right

Pins 5/6 can be confusing - you may think they would be SIDE outputs for 7.1, but it appears not to be the case - the only time those outputs become active is when in Sonar I can select the headphone channel of Wave HQ - audio also comes out of my Audigy Drives headphone output.

The drop down menu in kX 24/96 Router does nothing for me, never has either - so that should be ignored.

Russ

Hehe, you know, I was thinking of asking you specifically about those two things...
Thanks for the extra info

mark007

Excellent thanks for the explanation.

I have two questions..

Because I am using 5.1 I will need 6 delays in total. I can't seem to get a 6th one added because I am out of "xTRAM". Any way i can free more of this up so I can add the last delay? (EDIT: Got around this problem by using two SmallDelay 's for the last channel )

And last but not least, can I get the surrounder to use stereo x2 only on stereo content. It seems to copy front to rear now even when watching surround sound etc... I thought it used to be sort of smart and only be used when the input was not already 5.1.

Thanks!

Maddogg6

Increase your XTRAM ... Settings > Setup Buffers > 'Tank Memory Size'
I have my 10K2 card set to '2048'

I sorta does, but mostly by how the Wave devices are routed.
Normally with Wave 0/1 - if it stereo - it comes out of FXBus 0/1, but when it is surround (AC3 decoded) it instead comes out of 2/3, 4/5, 6/7.

So its not surrounder that was 'smart' it is wave 0/1 device really.. .Wave HQ is not so smart - Wave HQ stereo comes out of the same top pins of P16V as surround FRONT.
So, you will have to change surrounder for each different mode you desire.

IMHO I dont see surrounder being all that useful. I would probably use multiple DSP configs and load them as needed, instead of tweaking surrounder. Unless you use surrounders up mix capability (stereo to 5.1 with Surrond Mode ON)

Heres is an explanation of surrounder
Surrounder Explained

mark007

Thanks alot guys. I will not bother with the surrounder, and I have delays on all channels now, had to use 512kb tank memory, any greater doesn't seem to work.

Thanks again.

Maddogg6

what card model do you have.. .its seems to me that even 10K1 cards can use 1024 XTRAM/Tank Memory... ?? Perhaps its a vista thing too?? (I remember first reading about how Vista 'completely overhauled' the audio... I knew it was trouble lol)

mark007

Its just an "Audigy 2". Have always had problems with it with creatives drivers.... crackling sound, and I think I narrowed this down to the old problem with via chipsets.. KX gave me no troubles, no crackles.. I don't think I would go with creative again. I still don't know if I am getting reasonable quality from my 44.1khz content with the internal upsampling the card does.

I wonder if there is any software solutions to this that work at the driver level? Like a software based converter that might be higher quality than the cards conversion?

EDIT 1: Does the "Playback buffer size" have an impact on final delay. At my current setting, it says it will give me a delay of 8.7ms so I wonder does this need to be taken into account when setting the final delays for each channel. I have a feeling it is having an impact because delays of around 30ms seem to be perfect for me at the moment, was expecting more like 40 or 50 but they don't seem right when trying to tune it.

EDIT 2 : Damn, having problems keeping my settings. When I reboot with the dsp config you gave me, the dsp gets reset back to the original, the dsp with reverb and peak etc. I can get my saved dsp back by loading a file I saved. Each reboot I lose my settings again though. Tried rebooting, changing one setting in surrounder and rebooting again. This setting change in surrounder gets saved and reloaded correctly upon reboot but the huge dsp change I need doesn't seem to save..... anyone seen this problem before?

Maddogg6

Well - I know the VIA chipset had alot of trouble, both my SBLive and Audigy2 ZS Plat have worked fine - tho I cant stand the limiting and bloated drivers there was the Liveware or what ever they branded it as...
All in all - it seems to me its a tie between VIA and SB for their blunders.

The playbak buffer size - as in the kX Settings - Setup Buffers?
I think they affect Wave HQ playback, but I am not certain.

I was wondering how you came upon the '45 ms' delay...

I also think it is possible the delay you experience may not be consistent, seeing as how windows does its task managing. If you cant seem to tweak it... kinda makes sense anyway.

I thought others had this problem when they stop kX mixer from starting up at boot time and quiting the mixer - I leave it in memory all the time, and it saves its last state when I shut down - no problem - but that could be another vista thing... dont you just love beta testing?

Maybe try saving as 'kxdefault.kx' ?? maybe its something with file location / user access...?? I understand vista changed that significantly since XP. Do you run normally as an administrator? - Did you do any 'optimizations' of what runs on your PC??
That maybe is affecting you for both problems...??

Maybe your LCD is crap - and causing a changing delay...??

I dunno - seems like you made horrible choices in hardware / OS / TV's... lol Sorry, I couldnt contain myself.

mark007

Well getting the figures from forums. I read another post about this LCD and he measured it at 30ms in this PC Mode so I reckon thats more like it. Its a Samsung Series 9, meant to be the best lcds there is (or at least was a month ago lol)... pity even this thing has problems. I reckon I will stick to 25ms delay on all channels. Seems to be pretty perfect to my eyes / ears.

Hmm well I use reclock to sync my video and audio so I trust it when it says its between 0 and 1ms off sync most of the time so the Os isn't at fault in this case... bloody Samsung lol.

I will give loading presets a go using the startup folder. Thanks for the help.

Russ

kX Mixer needs to be started with the "--startup" command line switch to restore settings (from the registry) after booting.

Tyrsonswood

I've had to edit the registry manually on a few installs because for some reason setup didn't add the "--startup" switch. Usually it does, but on occasion it "misses" that.

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mark007

That sorted it.. Thanks alot guys!