praise and complaints...

GeneWitch · Feb 28, 2003, 08:08 AM

With that being said, allow me to rant and rave and ask some
questions:

I am a linux user, and that being said, i notice a lot of
similarities between this driver/software combo and the one that is
offered for linux for the audigy platinum card. the routing, the
loads of numbers to get things to work properly, the routing issues,
the "so-so" sound, etc.
before i get jumped on, allow me to explain.

I have a pioneer elite reciever hooked up to my computer in this
manner:
analog from jacks on back of the card = Center/Sub, Front left and
right, Rear left and right
Digital from platinum Ex "drive"= spdif out (coaxial/RCA/whatever),
and Fiber optic Digital out

Noooowwww..... what i desire is this:
I want the front left and right to run regular stereo just like i
didn't have a $700 5.1 surround analog in system attached to my card;
the rear channels to work like they do with the creative drivers...
they kinda "mux" the sound it's almost an exact copy of the front
left and right but you can tell the difference and it's a lot quiter,
ANNNND when i am writing music in "ModPlug Tracker -
www.modplug.com" the surround (S91) effect should go to
the rears ONLY(this is a problem i had with creative
drivers/hardware), i don't want them to be silent all the time, i
bought the speakers, i want them to work, and i don't want a "patch"
that makes them run off of the analog fronts. unless that is what the
creative drivers do, then i don't care, but right now i am ignorant
and upset because of it;
the center channel should be off most of the time, the only times i
hear it is with some divx files that happen to have the 5.1 encoded,
and DVDs, and EAX games(basically stuff that supports it) i am not
complaining about this... yet, cause i haven't done full tests (once
again, i dont want a "patch" that merely mixes the fronts into the
center, i HATE fake surround, it sounds like crap);
the subwoofer. this is my biggest concern. when you drop a cool $500
on a digital/analog in subwoofer, you want it to be used efficiently.
the problem is this(and this is why i dont use a LIVE, folks) the
audigy stock driver "mixer" panel has a button that says "settings"
when you are in "5.1 speaker" mode. under this little panel you get 3
sliders and a button, the right two sliders are my concern. one is
for subwoofer level, the other is for crossover frequency. how does
the SBAudigy know what to put in the subwoofer? because from what i
can tell of the Kx drivers, no soung comes out of my sub unless i
route the analog Fr and Fl to the epilog sub and center, this does
not bode well for my continued usage of these drivers, at least on
this machine;
Lastly, in the creative driver control panel, since i am using a
subwoofer, i turn the "bass" control all the way down. this is
DIFFERENT than the live series of cards, because when you turn the
BASS level down it affects the subwoofer. the reason i do this is
because i want all of the low bass to be handed off to the subwoofer,
because hell, i don't like muddy mids and highs, what can i say, i am
a complex man.

so anyhow, this lengthy post is a cry for help. i am not using linux
on this machine for one reason.. NO SUB CROSSOVER AND DEAD CENTER
CHANNEL.....

please... i like these drivers and any help in EXACTLY mirroring the
way creative does it with their control panel would be GREATLY
appriciated.

on another note, i was told about these drivers by someone with a
live card that wanted ASIO.. i dig the low latency... i was wondering
if the recording latency (analog) is any better with these drivers?
has it been tested? cause when we do live stuff i have a lot of delay
on the creative drivers... maybe it's hardware though.

PS... when i listen to MP3s in winamp 2.81 with "enhancer 0.17" with
creative drivers, i hear sound from 5 of the six channels, all except
center... and the sub is crossed over at 37 or 41 hz, depending on
what i am listening to. i want to replicate this, with these drivers.
(by the way, it's a SUBwoofer, folks... it's not supposed to be
shelved at 120hz, that's waaaay to high, you get buzzing.. at the
very MOST 50hz. anything over that is audiable, and shouldn't be put
thru a subwoofer.

)

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GeneWitch · Feb 28, 2003, 08:19 AM

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<burp> i am running dual displays, one is running off of a PCI
Geforce4 MX 420, and other is AGP geforce4 TI4600... i have AMD xp
1800+ with ABIT kx7-333R motherboard(i believe) with a VIA chipset.
whenever there is refreshing done on the PCI based screen(like
dragging a window, or a sequencer scrolling, ANYTHING moving) i get
really annoying damn clicks in the sound, and sometimes so bad that i
have to STOP playback and wait a while and then restart it. i have
heard rumors that creative and VIA don't like eachother and NEITHER
will do anything to fix the problem, and so i decided to try the Kx
drivers... it is still doing the same thing, and i was wondering if
anyone has a fix or something(my friend said that it's not my
southbridge, cause it only pops and clicks when i run dual monitors)
i was thinking busmastering or some other such nonsense that we can
all blame bill gates for(blah).

any help with this is appriciated, but my first post should take
precedence... thanks much

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Max M. · Feb 28, 2003, 12:43 PM

hmm, at first i should say i'm a bit confused with your firstpost...
ok, then... so:

> i don't want them to be silent all the time, i
>bought the speakers, i want them to work, and i don't want a "patch"
>that makes them run off of the analog fronts

ok, well, but later:

>the center channel should be off most of the time

Does this mean that you did not pay for center speaker?

> i HATE fake surround, it sounds like crap

ok, nice... but later again:

>when i listen to MP3s in winamp 2.81 with "enhancer 0.17"

but you have just say that you hate fake surround... hmm, so what
do you exactly do? hate or like fake surround?

>NO SUB CROSSOVER AND DEAD CENTER CHANNEL.....

So you need "bass redirection" and "fake rear/center" when listening to stereo (e.g. containing only front left and right channels) sound sources?

Ok, i think i may say now that kx30 will have both (as an option of course
- no forcing to listen to fake for some crazy guys (like me) that like fair sound)...

Also about Live/Audigy "sub-woofer" difference you mentioned:
Actually there's no difference in hardware between those cards in that (sub support i mean) part... But drivers can handle it in variouse ways (maybe you used too old driver for live?)

>how does the SBAudigy know what to put in the subwoofer?

When you enable "bass redirection" mixer code in dsp just filters ("redirects" to sub) low-frequencies (below the "split-freq" you set with one of faders) from left/right channels. E.g. you say "do that" to card yourself...

> i was wondering if the recording latency (analog) is any better with these drivers?
>has it been tested?

(hmm, strange question...

kX Project driver is used by many for more then year already.
And "low latency" is maybe one of the important features of this driver...
Do you think anyone would bother with kX if all that "low latency stuff" was just a myth?
Yes, it has been tested ... many, many, many times...

> cause when we do live stuff i have a lot of delay on the creative drivers...
>maybe it's hardware though.

No, it is software.

> i like these drivers and any help in EXACTLY mirroring the
>way creative does it with their control panel would be GREATLY
>appriciated.

So all this is about making a "Creative Clone but with some features that seems to me as incorrectly implemented in original" or what?

GeneWitch · Feb 28, 2003, 06:32 PM

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max i am certainly sorry for being confusing, it was like 4 AM when i
wrote that post.

so what you are telling me is that creative cheats with the surround
channels when i use "enhancer 0.17" (which, mind you, isn't a
surround plugin, it's basically a digital equalizer DSP for winamp,
it controls drum bass, harmonic bass, and harmonic treble, dry
signal, and crossovers for each, it is just about the BEST plugin for
the 2.x series of winamp)

i dont know how creative does it, i guess that is what i was asking.
if it cheats, then i will figure out the KxDSP and make it sound even
better.

i have another question nagging at my mind... and i have been reading
up but i have heard different responses:
When i have a DVD with DTS EX 5.1 surround encoding, and i have
powerDVD set to "USE SPDIF" can i have that go from my
coaxial/fiberoptic out to my reciever, and in turn have my reciever
"click on" it's ac-3 mode(i think that's what it says, i have no way
of checking) and display all the speakers it's using off of the
stream? this is what it does with the creative drivers(and it's
something i couldn't get to work in linux either.) for reference,
when i just use "digital out" for wave files(not dvd) i hear stuff
from both the coaxial AND fiberoptic SPDIF jacks on my reciever.
normally when i am listening to music or playing games i have my
reciever set to DVD 5.1Ch Analog(6 inputs, analog)

also, would i need two configurations, one for music and one for
games? you know, to hook the center and sub and rear to the fronts
with the varying crossovers and such, and one for straight-thru for
games (like giants:citizen kabuto, morrowind, stuff where directional
sound is needed)

also, when i said fake surround, i was talking about stuff like
"reverb in rear" or "theatre" settings on a reciever, stuff that
makes the rear speakers echo, etc.

Due to your timely and fantastic (even though it was a hard post to
respond to) response, that is MORE than enough reason to continue to
beta test and admire these drivers.

thanks much...

PS on my audigy should i hook my rear outputs to the "front L/R"
outputs on my reciever, i read here that since it's IC2 or something
it sounds better???

thanks for taking the time, again!

Much Regards,
PrimEvil

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GeneWitch · Feb 28, 2003, 06:39 PM

actually, weirdly enough... i am listening to winamp right now and it has read left and right (with the routing thingy going straight to the epilog)... more later(i'll just edit this post... so no SHA1 HASH :-) )

__edit line___

okay i have been foiling around with the DSP thingy. What i did is put a timbre inbetween the analog rear routing thingy and the analog rear epilog ports, then i did the same with the fronts, and then, i took the "summ" dsp plugin and ran Front left, front right, and RO_SUB to it, and then ran that to the LOWPASS plugin, and then THAT to the VOL+DC plugin (cause the sub was way too loud hehe), and finally into the analog sub inputs. now, is this right? anyone shout out, it doesn't need to be max, i am sure he's sick of me already.. hehehe

now for the center channel... anyone know how to subtract the front left and right channels from eachother and then 180Degree phase shift the result so i can have a nifty center channel as well? nevermind i'll figure it out. :-)

Max M. · Mar 1, 2003, 07:25 AM

>i am sure he's sick of me already.. hehehe

hehe, no, it's fine, i'm maybe just a bit curiouse (and maybe too critical) then i should.

>now for the center channel... anyone know how to subtract the front left and right channels from eachother and then 180Degree phase shift the result so i can have a nifty center channel as well?

No, the classical way for center is 'center = K * (left + right)' where K is 0.5 ... 0.707.
The way with substract and phase shift is exactly for getting "virtual" (ok, "fake"

)
rear...

And... and well, as i sayd, just wait a bit, all that stuff is already put into single plugin which is part of default setup in ver. 30 of the driver. no need to bother with all that tricky connections anymore...