Audigy 2 SPDIF Digital Out to 1616M In. Getting Pops and Clicks. Need help please.

Psuperhuman

Using Audigy 2 Platinum with the newest 3538 kx drivers.

I have SPDIF digital out of the Audigy 2 platinum going to SPDIF digital in on a 1616m. I have it in sync at 48000 but I keep getting slight pops and clicks seemingly at random (happens at 96000 too). I looked all over the place and found nothing on how to troubleshoot this. I'm using the best digital cable possible (belden and canare), have no issues with either card but have little experience with SPDIF.

I thought perhaps it could be losing sync but the sync never visually drops (there's a sync light on the 1616m). I thought it could be buffer settings on the Audigy but I increased the buffer settings (right click menu) and still same dropouts.

If anyone has any ideas I'd be extremely appreciative, am more than willing to try stuff and post more info.

P

dj_stick

what are the latency settings on the 1616m?

Psuperhuman

That's a great question. I'm trying to find out the answer right now, but I never saw any settings to adjust the latency on the 1616m unit.

Be back at ya soon hopefully...

Psuperhuman

Unless I'm totally missing something, there doesn't appear to be a buffer setting anywhere for the 1616m.

It seems it may be controlled via the application only(like sonar)? Is that possible?

dj_stick

that's quite possible, check the ASIO control panel for the latency there

also if possible test the spdif output from the sb card with an external device (digital speakers perhaps) to see if it's the sb card that's causing the problem

Psuperhuman

Psuperhuman

Ok this is driving me nuts, and I think I'm reading into it way deeper than I should be.

However...

Here's the sample of the "tick" sound. Visible easily in Spectral view, but you'll hear the small "tick" right about in the middle of the sample.
http://home.comcast.net/~digipso/click1.wav

Where is some decent documentation on the SPDIF setup stuff with regards to the KX Drivers? I was always under the impression that S/PDIF was fairly straight forward - Get a good cable, setup the same sample rate, set a sync master and slave, connect Out to In and go to town.

This slight crackle makes me think the Audigy is not set up right or something, as loop tests on the 1616m seem solid. I want to loop test the Audigy too but I'm not quite sure what the best way is to do this is (RMAA possibly but I want more info on the DSP setup I have which at the moment is the default one).

I've searched these forums over and over, and either people are not having many problems with S/pdif, or they simply don't use it much with the Audigy cards. I see a bit about Audigy recording via s/pdif, very little about Audigy Out to another card.

EDIT: Here is my SPDIF status on the Audigy card OUT connected to the 1616m IN:

SPDIF Inputs: [R-Rate Locked; S-Stream Locked; V-Valid Audio]
spdif A: unused
spdif B: unused
spdif C: unused or same as B
I2S Inputs: (0): 96000Hz [R] (1): 96000Hz [R] (2): 96000Hz [R]
SPDIF Outputs:
(0): 2109204 (1): 2109204 (2): 2109204 (24 bits / 48000 Hz)
SPDIF Extended status:
(0): 24bits/48000Hz (1): 24bits/48000Hz (2): 24bits/48000Hz
p16v: PB: (bypass) I2S Out:96000Hz SPDIF Out:(bypass)
Rec: (0): 0 [u] (1): 0 [u] (2): 0 [u] (3): 0 [u]
-----------------------------------------


And here's the SPDIF Audigy IN Connected to the 1616m OUT. I get no pops or clicks with this setup:

SPDIF Inputs: [R-Rate Locked; S-Stream Locked; V-Valid Audio]
spdif A: unused
spdif B: 2000004 Freq: 48001 [R] [S] [V] || 24bits/SR unspec.
spdif C: unused or same as B
I2S Inputs: (0): 96000Hz [R] (1): 96000Hz [R] (2): 96000Hz [R]
SPDIF Outputs:
(0): 2109204 (1): 2109204 (2): 2109204 (24 bits / 48000 Hz)
SPDIF Extended status:
(0): 24bits/48000Hz (1): 24bits/48000Hz (2): 24bits/48000Hz
p16v: PB: (bypass) I2S Out:96000Hz SPDIF Out:(bypass)
Rec: (0): 0 [u] (1): 0 [u] (2): 0 [u] (3): 0 [u]
-----------------------------------------

Could the 1616m not finding proper "total" sync with the Audigy? Where is the sync clock information on the audigy kx drivers?

I'm at a loss, but I'm not giving up... again any help is much appreciated.

P

dj_stick

the only way for an Audigy to sync to another card is during direct spdif recording

both are based on the same chip, so it could be the same issue

make sure you set (if possible) for the emu card to slave to an incoming spdif clock

Psuperhuman

Yea I've had the 1616m setup for external sync @ 48 the entire time (when setup to slave from the Audigy Out). If it's not then it doesn't show "locked" and constantly crackles which is expected.

Is there a setting on the Audigy to sync internal or external? That's what I've been trying to find out and have thoroughly gone through every setting possible on both cards. The emu is settable internal or external, I haven't seen anything on the Audigy that is settable.

I was given another suggestion to sync the Audigy and EMU with the EMU as master clock, but connect BOTH inputs on both cards together at the same time. That sounds worth a shot too, but I can't shake the feeling that simply slaving a device to the Audigy clock is meant to work well.

P

Psuperhuman

Well having both ins and outs connected didn't make a difference. I ordered some Toslink cables to try next, but I'm pretty sure the same problem will exist.

I've looked through these forums and the net everywhere, and it seems either no one uses the Audigys OUT to another S/PDIF device, or if they do they never have problems. Plenty of people connecting to the INs with questions and troubleshooting, but nothing on the OUTs - I'm thinking very few use the SPDIF out on the Audigys.

So if you use the OUT on the Audigy to a slave device, please let me know what settings you had to change if any (aside from the sample rate pulldown (44, 48, 96)) to make it work flawless.

Thanks for any help,

P

Psuperhuman

I now have been trying this with the optical cable and the problem still exists. I'm of the opinion that the Audigy is simply not doing the job it's supposed to and drops sync randomly.

For now I'll just record what I need to and redo (or spectral fix) any parts that drop sync, and replace the Audigy with something in the future. It's been a great run with the KX drivers/forum, and I'm gonna try a few more things to try to isolate the issue. But if I can't use the s/pdif with my other DAW, it's useless to keep it except for the occasional game.

Still love to hear anyone who has ideas, specifics on the audigy spdif settings, and any success stories on utilizing the Audigy OUT. I'm losing hope, but there's always options to brighten a day...

Psuper!

BODYPRINT

Hey Super,

I'm getting a 1212M (today???) and am going to use my Audigy2 LiveDrive for the preamp.

I was going to hook up the Optical Out to the 1212M.

I'll let you know how I fare. BTW I will be...very sadly...using the Creative Audigy2/4 drivers so that I can get proper EAX from the Audigy.

I'll give the kX a go as well just so you have more information.
The only difference is that my cards will be in the same computer, whereas your 1616M , I assume, is on a laptop.

As a side question, does the signal go from the Mic/Line 2 input to the Digital out through the DSP, or directly?

Psuperhuman

Grats on the 1212 man, and please do let me know how it goes.

It may be a bit tricky if you have them both on the same computer, but I've always just used one and am not aware of the kind of problems or benefits you'll get.

I've considered using the Creative drivers just to test with, but there's a few reasons I haven't. Mainly because I need the GSIF. If I can't use GSIF there's no reason to use it. Also have more faith in these KX guys, as they've made a virtually useless card for musicians into a great card for musicians. They obviously know what they are doing and I doubt I'll get better results with sync on the Creative drivers. Never needed the Creative drivers before, and have no desire to load them ever again (I even use KX drivers for games, eax seems to just get on my nerves more these days than add immersion).

As for the DSP setup, I'm assuming you mean on the Audigy? Well I started with the default DSP with the new 3528j, and tried my custom DSPs I used before. And they both don't make a difference with the problem of sync. My main custom one is this:

Custom Slim DSP

I only need the WAV, Midi, and ASIO since I don't record voice (aux) on it anymore, but when I did I never had anything routed to the digital out, just recently the SPDIF OUT /Digital Front. If you can explain further on what you are meaning to do, I could probably help you further.

Psuperhuman

Well I loaded up the newest creative drivers just to test... and it's the same problem. It's very random, sometimes it will not tick or drop for 3 or 4 minutes solid, other times it drops 6 - 7 times in a minute.

So it's either the Audigys as a whole don't work well SPDIF out supplying the clock, or just my unit. I'd bet if I got another unit in a completely different machine it would do the same thing. SPDIF In on the Audigy works great, SPDIF out is pretty much useless.

But man I'd love to hear from some others who have tried it, or at least would try it since I brought up this issue. I can't believe I'm the only guy around here who did.

Maddogg6

I record from SPDIF inputs on the A2 frequently with no problems like your describing..
I even recorded KX Synth from my Live card (Live SPDIF out -> A2 CD SPDIF input) no sync needed (but both are using a 48 Khz DSP too) but my Guitar FX processor is 48Khz @ 20 bit - and I dont have any artifacts like this (3538h did have a squeal if I had too high of volume out of my effects processor tho)

So Im inclined to think its an issue with the 1616m's ASIO implementaion. Possibly a driver conflict - being both cards from same parent company.

For more shits and giggles - try it the other way around - feed the A2 with 1616m via SPDIF and record using KX ASIO instead of EMU's - this may rule out if its ASIO driver related (maybe - Im an idiot, so you cant bank on anything I say..lol)

Or possibly something with the PCI buss when using both cards at same time??

Psuperhuman

Ya got it reversed. The desktop Audigy spdif OUT to the laptop EMU spdif IN is the problem. I need my Audigy desktop to be my giga machine, and send my sounds to the laptop through spdif. And like I said it seems almost no one uses the Audigy SPDIF out to another machine, but plenty use it to record from it's IN.

The desktop Audigy spdif IN works great when connected to the laptop EMU spdif OUT , but I have no need for this.

Maddogg6

So - its a 1616m problem then... ??

Or are you saying its an SPDIF output problem on KX??

Psuperhuman

Well that's just it, I suspect its the Audigy SPDIF Out (clock) that has the problem, but I really have no solid way of telling.

The Audigy out to the 1616m dropout/tick is the same onall Audigy outputs. Both Livedrive Optical and Coax out, as well as the back of the PCI car's digital out (1/8 to RCA).

The Audigy SPDIF IN / 1616m OUT works great when it's getting the clock from the 1616m, and I never hear any dropouts or ticks.

Since it seems to be a sync problem, wouldn't that indicate a problem with the Audigy supplying Clock?

I really have no way of knowing what the problem is short of getting another SPDIF device and sending it OUT to the 1616m and see what happens.

Pretty irritating, I'm no closer to knowing what the problem is than when I started really.

Psuperhuman

Well I'm now trying to run an RMAA loop test on the Audigy SPDIF and it doesn't see ASIO or the SPDIF in the options. Anyone every try testing the SPDIF with RMAA?

I was able to looptest the 1616m's SPDIF with RMAA, and had no problems.

EDIT: Ok I'm pretty sure I had to use non ASIO on the EMU too after looking at the rightmark options. It was awhile ago and I was able to do it through the DSP routing.

How would I route a SPDIF test in the DSP for Rightmark? Anyone able to gimme a pointer here? Seems no matter how I setup the DSP it makes no difference with the SPDIF OUT problem, but I imagine it would need to be setup properly to do an internal loop test.

Maddogg6

Id imagine you would use WAVE 0/1 device in right mark. Then,

In the DSP take FX Buss 0/1 and connect to the REC L/R of Epilog.
OR - set WAVE RECORD level in KX Mixer

This would make a loop - I cant think of any other way to do such a test...
Edit:
The only way to use SPDIF for a loop test would be to physically connect a SPDIF out to a SPDIF in on the card - then in DSP connect SPDIF from prolog to the REC L/R of Epilog - then Connect FXBuss 0/1 to the SPDIF out thats your using (the Digital front /rear etc..)

but I would consider that as 'internal'...

Psuperhuman

Yea I want to use the physical coax or opticals for the loop. Right now I'm just using a SRC FX 0/1 to a K2lt. I don't see anything anywhere that would allow me to specify SPDIF OUT in the DSP, not even the epiloglt. It's been awhile since I toyed with the DSP, but I never used SPDIF in the past so it's new to me.

EDIT: I guess I could try it internal first anyways, but think ultimately I need to use the physical connections.

btw, thanks for workin this with me some maddog, even if it doesn't end up working it's nice to have someone to bounce ideas off of.

Psuperhuman

Well the loop test worked, thanks for the pointers maddog. I'm not sure what I was expecting because it doesn't detect dropouts or anything like that, just the standard snr and stuff.

Gah oh well. If anyone else reads this and has any help or input that'd be great. Otherwise I'll just let this die and go get some other card to test with.

Maddogg6

No problem... but,

The SPDIF IN is on prolog OR profx/SRC..

The SPDIF out is the 'DIGITAL front/rear/Center/LFE..

Psuperhuman

It appears to be working better, but man this makes no sense at all...

I have the Audigy and the 1616m both connected on Ins and Outs (coax). The 1616m is on Internal 48K clock. The Audigy SPDIF frequency is set to 96k. And it seems to be working better. I'm listening very closely for 10 minutes and I've only heard a slight click once (least I think I did)

Now.. If I change the Audigy freq to 48 (which is what it should be if the Audigy clock is to sync to the 1616m(which is set E 48 internal)), there is audible clicks during music playing. It does not work any other way, no matter who is supplying the clock or the sample rates that they are set on.

I don't know if I should trust this setup, and am holding off getting excited about it.

Any input? Shouldn't there be artifacts or problems with no actual clock sync or mismatched rate? How can this be?


Edit:

It never ends...

There is a problem with it setup like this. When I play a piano note, there's an almost inaudible tick at the beginning and end of each note. It's not noticible at all if there's a song playing or something, but if you simply hit a key letting the audio go on and off, you can hear the click.

Psuperhuman

This is just an update to let you know I figured out the problem – it was the Audigy 2 Platinum hardware.




Once I put in the Audiophile 2496 I bought to test with, SPDIF out to my 1616m worked beautifully.




So thank you guys for suggestions and ideas, it's a shame it ended up being the Audigy Hardware.




I also advise you to test it. I have a hard time believing it was a problem on just my Audigy 2, and since making this thread and posting on many forums I still haven't seen anyone come forward saying they have used the SPDIF out to a separate card. I know I did everything possible...Creative and KX drivers, different coax and optical cables, multiple cables hooked up, clocks and rate settings, buffers, on and on and on. I'm betting this is a larger problem...




Psuper!

JGSF

I too can't connect my audigy2 spdif out to my 1212m spdif in... I mean, in my case, I don't even get any input in the 1212m.

Could you tell me what settings you have used in your audigy2?

Thanks.