Civilization 4 questions

BlueMak

I have Civilization 4, but never played much. The whole concept of religion bothered me.
The last two days I am thinking of giving it another try.
Now to my question. In Civilization 3 there were 2 expansion packs. If you had the latest one, you didn't need the first one since it included everything from it. Is the same situation true with Civilization 4?
Also, does the expansion pack(s) offer more than new scenarios?

And one last question, I think that all civlizations start with a "pagan" religion. Is it possible to play the whole game as that or do you have to change it?

Zelig

From one of the devs:

Beyond the Sword includes lots of stuff other than scenarios, check the GH review, or the wiki page for more info.

There are two different religion options, there's the religion civics, and the state religion;

Religion civics: Paganism, organized religion, theocracy, pacifism, free religion.
With any of these except for free religion, you can have any state religion, they give different bonuses to cities with the state religion and have different levels of upkeep and penalties.

Religions: Buddhism, Christianity, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism and Taoism (or none)
All functionally identical. The only differences are the required technology, and the resource required to built some of the advanced religious buildings. Religion civic bonuses only apply to cities which have the state religion chosen here, and bonuses/penalties are applied with other civs for sharing/not sharing a religion.

It is possible to play through without choosing a state religion. Even if not avoiding state religions, it's sometimes helpful to not have one, in order to stay friendly with civs who have different religions. Either way, if you don't have a state religion, switch to free religion once you get it.

BlueMak

The gamespot reviewer said that a game ends faster than before and it is possible to finish one game in an hour or two. That is a bad thing for me. Is Civ IV really that changed and simplified and shortened? I like Civ III + Conquests, and Civ Test of Time, cause a game can take several hours to finish. If I wanted a strategy game to end in an hour I would play a card game, or chess.

Zelig

I'm not sure, as I haven't gotten BTS yet, but that seems odd to me. Early wins with the early UN-type wonder, or accelerated starts could possibly end the game more quickly, but they're both optional.

Playing from 4000 BC with any early victory types disabled on epic game speed should provide for very long games in any case.

mike2h

civ4 + bts is the best civ yet imo. & it is only 'possible'(im sure that is y they used that word) to finish a game that quick if the scenario(wich i dont play) or your custom game set it up that way. im about 9 hrs into my current game.. & have few to go.
get bts & read the manual/use help. there are some significant changes. & you dont need warlords.

BlueMak

well, I bought both and downloaded them. I will try them later today. (Steam).
Thanks for your replies.

mike2h

unless you want to play the scenarios there is no reason at all to install warlords. the scenarios are the only diff.

BlueMak

Well, from what I understand you need warlords for the extra civs as well.

BlueMak

Very interesting so far. Regarding the length, I turned the Marathon mode on and the game is anything but short. Finaly a Civ game where I don't feel rushed through the ages.

Things I am not so sure about yet:
Is the map actualy larger than Civ 3 conquests? It doesn't feel like it so far.
Is there a button so that when you are in city view to click on it to leave city view or only the ESC/enter key work? I would rather not have to use keyboard shortcut.
I tried the Terra type of map and it felt like all the civs were on a continent. Is this normal?


I hope one day (Civ 5 if they ever do it) they return with an expanded game mode as in Test of Time. It felt great dealing with alien invasion and attacking the alien planet.

Zelig

The largest Civ IV maps are larger than the largest Civ III maps, you can choose the map size when starting a custom game.

Click anywhere on the map outside of the city radius, or on the mini-map.

Yes, it's in the map description for terra maps, everyone starts on one continent.

BlueMak

About the map types,
At one point I get three options,
Flat and 2 others. Can you please explain them?

Zelig

Oops, sorry I missed this.

Flat is what it means.
Cylindrical means the sides (left/right) loop around, but there are still edges to the top and bottom.
I haven't played toroidal in ages, but IIRC, it makes the top and bottom loop back to each other as well as the sides.

Middle clicking also closes the city view.


I finally got BTS for myself, playing Rhye's and Fall now, after trying a few regular games, I'm quite enjoying myself.

BlueMak

Yes, it is quite good. Silly they haven't included as religion say the religion of greeks and romans or others.

mike2h

i think bts is the best the thing to happen to civ in a ling time.
the greek & roman worship of their respective gods(the romans borrowed fron the greeks heavily) wasnt really a religion as we think of it, but a loose(very) set of beliefs that varied from area to area. it would be almost impoosible to set it up within the game so that you had an actual 'religion' following the greek/roman belief sytem in anyway that was meaningful(& educational). there just wasnt enough structure there.

BlueMak

Hmm, well, as one person who believes in these "set of beliefs" if you want to get technical, "belief" in the olympians is not a religion at all. BUT, no matter what it has happened to it now, neither were Christianity, perhaps even Islam at first.
How much of a pure religion is Taoism?


They should have had more options for the religious part of the game. I hope they will in a future expansion pack or sequel.

Zelig

They decided against differentiating any of the religions for the sake of political correctness, and to avoid issues where people could claim to be offended.

BlueMak

I understand that. But at least have more of them, even if technicaly there are differences.

mike2h

they have more than enough options for religion( it is possible to add to much).
while i give you that taosim may not actually be a religion it does not change the fact that what the greeks & romans ppracticed is not a religion. the big difference being in what you yourself pointed out - christianity & islam(along with every religion) start out as a belief system. the ymature & develop into religions. this never happened with the greek/roman mythos has they didnt have the structure or spirituality to make that step.
though some of their practices lasted quite awhile beyond their basic demise & were carried into other beleif systems.
the bottom line, humanity outgrew those & many other mythos.

BlueMak

Though I understand what you are saying, and I feel like debating as to how humanity outgrew as you said, those or not, I don't think I can do it in a easy, relaxing way without using some nasty words about the more "mature" religions. So, I will just say, I disagree with that point of yours and leave it at that.

mike2h

fair enough