Electric Guitar Multieffects

ROBSCIX

Hey guys, I am coming up with ideas for the KX DSP for using it as a Multieffects Unit for electric guitar. So on the one end I have the Line_in and the other I have output. The question is what tp put in the middle. Distortion. Chorus, phaser,reverb, Graphic EQ. So I need some ideas for effects to put in. I would appreciate feedbacl from the guitar players. Since this is only A dsp Config, I will submit it to the exchange when finished. Som give me some ideas guys, or help with development..pics of the DSP..with a specific part built..like the Mixer stage..where all effects are mixed into the dry signal...etc...there is alot to consider..so any help would be great thanks guys...

Russ

I don't know, I currently use my Digitech for most of that stuff. I guess a noise gate, digital delay, and a compressor would be good to add, along with what you allready mentioned. I do not want to bug him or anything, but I wonder if Tiger is still planning/developing the Guitar Suite he had mentioned previously.

ROBSCIX

We talked before about the digitech, I also have one a RP100, it has an output that I patch to my line in..then I have signals to my KX DSP..so thats where I want to do some work I have been playing today. I am not sure, I think tiger isn't doing any more developing.. He had a link to a nice distortion with some filters..he won't release it..in it's current form anyhow, if he is gonn release a guitar suite then awsome. That I assume is another Plugin. But I am interested in using the KX DSP to add to what I already have..So I am gonn use the RP for input of a clean signal only, maybe some amp models..but I am gonna experiment with the DSP...what do you think Russ any good ideas? Can you give a list off effect you would like to have on a unit, compare notes and have something to start with..

Russ

I think the most commonly used ones would be distortion, compressor, EQ, gate, reverb, and chorus. Beyond that, aside from what was allready mentioned, maybe vibrato or tremelo, and flanger. I think I would start with the more commonly used ones and make a setup that included those, the src for line in (of course), a src for drums (whether it be midi, fruity loops, a drum machine or whatever), the outputs of course, ASIO, and a mixer (and any peak meters if necessary), and see what you have left over for resources (those of us with 10k1 cards run out of resources fairly quickly).

ROBSCIX

I know I have limited resources so, That why I am gonna use SRC's and ADC and kxlt for output. THe the I/O will be lean. Well I have to consider the order for the effects and how to patch them in..If you have ideas through them out..thats what I want..I am gonna post this to the exchange anyhow. Let's here the ideas.. I am running through ideas of ways to mix effects and patch them in..so I am brusshing up on my DSP...maybe some FXmix? I have to consider on how to make the effects movable within the chain, of course some will be unmovable but other will be more useful if the can be moved around in the chain..

ROBSCIX

I tried loading these and they load, with the I/O plugins...but I haven't tried to load routing plugins..stmix..fxmix..etc...I have a scribble pad..working out the details..any ideas?

Russ

As for the order of effects, I am not sure what is the best to use overall. I can only tell you what they are in my Digitech (it is listed in the manual). As for which mixer to use, that would also depend on how you wanted to route the effects so you may want to decide on that last. Hopefully some other guitar players will respond.

Russ

BTW: I think a custom plugin is needed if you want to be able to dynamically change the order of the effects.

ROBSCIX

I have been looking at the block diagram of my RP100 also, give me ideas as to the best way to link the effects. The Custom plugin idea I considered, Unfortuantley it would have to be written by someone else. All I think it would be is a dynamic router. So the effects can be connected on the left hand side in whatever order..then the plugin can change the order of the outputs...or something to that idea..this is gonna take a bit of planning,,your right I wish some other guitarist would chime in and give some ideas...thx for your help though russ..

Russ

Yeah, the custom plugin would have to be something like this:

On the left side:
Input from src.
Return inputs from each effect.

On the Right Side:
Main Out.
Sends for each effect.

The plugin code would just chain them together in the way you want.

Of course that would take planning before such a plugin could even be created as you would need to know the number of effects, etc., and it would use more resources. Additonally, it would add a delay because the signal would have to be sent in and out of the plugin once for each effect in the chain.

ROBSCIX

well, if we could get the routing "circuitry" figured out then we could add in the effects later. Basically there are only so many effect within the KX dsp that would be of use to a guitar though. I understand what your saying but I am trying to wrap my head around how it would work. Maybe a fixed signal path would be better?..or No I think we are on th right path with the ability to move the effects with the Chain it would be much more useful as a sonic tool for guitar correct?

Russ

Another thing to consider is mono effects vs stereo effects, and unused effect sends/returns. I do not think it would be all the difficult to make the plugin, we just need to consider all the details. I will think about it some more...

Russ

This stereo -vs- mono thing could get complicated. Do you think we should just ignore mono effects (you can always connect 2 of them to a stereo input)? Most of the effects are stereo. Should we expect the guitar signal to be stereo or should we make it optional and convert a mono signal to stereo within the plugin? I am thinking it should be as simple as possible to conserve resources (probably use an interface similair to kxlt). What do you (or anyone) think?

Russ

I started working on the custom plugin to do the routing. It will start out failry basic so we can have something to try out, and then we can decide what should be added/removed/changed etc. The interface is like that of kxlt, where you can choose the routing order using combo boxes (I also added a 'none' option, so that you do not have to use all of the effect slots). The interface is just about finished, and the basic microcode is just about finshed as well. I just need to add the dynamic microcode stuff, and do some testing. For the moment it has 1 stereo in, 1 stereo out, and 7 stereo effect lines. BTW: What version of kX are you using?

eyagos

And what about using Tram for change dynamically the order of the plugins? I mean, you send the output of each effect to one tram position (if you have 7 effcts, you use 8 tram positions, one for the input). The inputs also should be taken from Tram, and you can control the order of the effects easily: Just changing wich input do you send to each effect...

Maddogg6

More 'flexible' effects processors will offer 'presets' of effect chains.
ex.
One preset chain may be:
IN - AMP/SIM - Distortion - CHORUS < (1-delay) (2-reverb) > MIXER - OUTPUT
All effects can be bypassed at will (without glitch, and trailing delays shall be allowed to continue or not. (pre or post 'effect' muting) and should have volume levels on effects that *could* affect signal volume levels like distorion. So if distortion is by passed - the 'loudness' will be about the same.

Another may be:
INPUT - Distortion - EQ - SPLITTER <- (1- Delay) & (2 - Reverb) & (3 - Chorus/flanger) -> MIXER -OUTPUT

Or;
INPUT - DISTORION - COMPRESSOR - EQ - SPLITTER <- (1- Delay) & (2 - Reverb) & (3 - Chorus/flanger) -> MIXER -OUTPUT

Or
INPUT - COMPRESSOR - DISTORTION - EQ - SPLITTER <- (1- Delay) & (2 - Reverb) & (3 - Chorus/flanger) -> MIXER -OUTPUT

Or
INPUT - COMPRESSOR - DISTORTION - EQ - CHORUS/FLANGER - REVERB - DELAY

Etc..

I had a Peavy ProFexII guitar processor that had this arrangement for selecting possible 'chains' which was quite flexible.

I would however divide the gain / delay / and modulation effects by it mono/stereo inputs/ outputs - so that if a stereo output effect is introduced, the following effects will automatically be ST effects. Thus the above example would be:
INPUT - COMPRESSOR - DISTORTION - EQ - CHORUS - ST REVERB - ST DELAY -

While each 'effect' block will physically attach 2 inputs (left and right), some may mix the imputs prior to affecting the signal making it a MONO/MIX input.
Like the ST Chorus could mix the inputs before the modulation is added which could then result in a stereo output - or it could be 2 mono chorus effects with a mono output, one for left and one for right. As its usually the dleay and modulation effects that can convert a mono signal into a stereo signal. Although some amp sims may also..

GAIN EFFECTS:
Compressor (mono/mix in and out)
ST Compressor (stereo in and out)
Distortion (mono/mix in and out)
Amp-sim (mono/mix in and out)

DELAY EFFECTS:
Reverb (mono/mix in - stereo out)
ST. Reverb (stereo input and output)
Delay (mono/mix in - stereo out)
ST Delay (stereo in and out)

MODULATION EFFECTS:
Chorus (mono in - mono or stereo out)
ST chorus (mono/mix or stereo in - stereo out)
Flanger (mono in - mono or stereo out)
ST Flanger (mono or stereo in - stereo out)

Hope that helps.

ROBSCIX

Russ, I am currently using 3538, I think it's version h..but I bounce back to 3537 sometimes...If you want me to do some testing with you let me know which version your coding the plugins in...The more you think about it the more complex you can make it, but you have to decide on one approach(I do I mean).. I think we decided to use stereo effects..to keep the complexity down...but then again for beta version maybe mono is the way to go, they would use less resources and such..what do you think?>>NO stereo effect are cool for guitar>>keep the ideas coming>>this is gonna be cool

Russ

@eyagos
Using the TRAM is a good idea, it would certainly makes things easier. However, for the moment I am doing the dynamic microcode thing to keeps the resource usage at a minimum.

@Maddog6
All the extras you mention sound nice, but again, in the interest of conserving resources (the effects themselves, especially reverb, and such effects, are resource hungry, so I thnk it would be better to save the resources for them), for the moment anyway, it will just handle the routing (allow you to change the order of the effects in the chain). Level matching and such things will be left to the effects themselves or other plugins (there is no reason why you cannot add a gain plugin or something in beteeen the effect and the send/return's, etc).

@ROBSCIX
Currently I am using 3538i, but I can compile for whatever version you need as well. Again for the moment it is stereo, mainly because most of the available effects are stereo. Mixing mono and stereo would be considerably more difficult because we would have to figure out how we need to mix the signals for every possible cirumstance. Again, things can be changed later, once we decide how we would like it to be, and figure out how to do it without consuming too many resources, etc.

At the moment I am re-writing some of the code because the "none" option (which I think is useful because it allows you to bypass an effect, without actually having to bypass the effect... and you are not always going to want to use 7 effects at once) is causing some complications.

ROBSCIX

I didn't want to use ver. i becuase I can't use ver. 2.1 proFX..the none idea is good though, i just figured hit disable. seem like you have a beetr idea of what will work then me!..

Russ

I wasn't sure how kX would respond to bypassing an effect who's inputs and outputs were both connected to the same plugin. For that reason, and the other reasons I mentioned, I decided to include that option. I think I might change it to a bypass checkbox or something (previously I had it as an option in the dropdown box, along with the effect), and I think that will remove some of the extra complications.

Russ

Well, I did some testing and bypassing an effect (outside of this plugin) does not seem to cause any problems. However, I still think having the bypass option within this plugin is necessary because if you are using effects (or other plugins) that use a lot of resources, such that you do not have enough resouces for 7 effects, then you need a way to make this plugin work with less effects (i.e. if one of the send/return's is not connected to anything, then it breaks the chain, and thus you would get no sound at all without a bypass option (basically to tell it to skip that effect slot)).
Here is an example screenshot: http://tinypic.com/aze9mq.gif
The outputs of the effects look as though they are not connected to anything, but that is just because they are going straight back to the return inputs of this plugin.
Notice the resource usage in the pic. With that setup I am almost max'd out on resources.
BTW: The name is just temporary, we can think of a better name later.

Also don't forget that in addition to the 7 effect slots, you can also connect effects to the in and out connections, thus allowing more effects in the chain (you just will not be able to change the order of those effects, but that is good for effects that are typipcally always first or last in the chain... and obviously you can chain mutiple effects to any send/return as well).

I think another option that would be good, is being able to rename the effects in the effect list, such that you can change the names to match the effects that you have connected (although they will not be able to be saved in a preset list, they would be able to be saved along with a DSP config, etc).

Anyway, I am still working on the bypasses. It is a little tricky, whenever I think I have it working, some combination of changing paramters doesn't work right, so I then have to go and redo it, almost from scratch again, and then test various scenarios again, etc.

ROBSCIX

Man that router is awsome, Great job Russ. Now do you mean ti would be great to be able to save routings?..like FX1,FX4,FX2,FX3....BEcause that would be really cool if that was possible but I think it would be hard. I would be more than happy to start running some test if you like. My guitar has been in the other room but I am gonna bring it out and hook it up tonight..

Russ

Saving the routings is not a problem. That will work with the presets just like with any other plugin. I just meant being able to name them, and save the names too.

Russ

If you want play around with it without the bypasses working, let me know (and what version of KX you need it for (I am guessing from your previous reply 3538h).

ROBSCIX

Well I can wait if you want, untill it's a little more stable. That router plug, is very slick man, So the router has an in and an out, but the effects are movable within the chain..correct?..man that is really awsome. Maybe if this thread is being followed by the powers that be it will be included from know on with KX..also, if an efect is routed in and out of the fx router..say as 1 block..an echo perhaps...then couldn't a person just add another right beside it..the router moves it as just one block but it's actually two or three plugins correct? I hope that makes sense.

Russ

It should be stable, the bypasses just will not do anything.
Yes, all the effects (or effect block, if multiple effects are chained to any single send/return), are moveable within the chain. Just the main in's and out's are not moveable. It looks and works very much like k1lt/k2lt/kxlt (although it uses different code, I thought LeMury's interface and swap thing would work well with this plugin, so I designed it with that in mind).