MIDI reverb/chorus and default DSP setup problem

igor_levicki · Mar 29, 2005, 09:08 AM

Well, I installed kx 3538h and using default dsp setup I have small problem.

If I up reverb and chorus sliders in kx mixer, they work for wave source too and I need them only for MIDI. I guess disconnecting wave source from FX mix DSP plugin would fix this.

Moreover, with Creative drivers I was able to put the sliders at 100% and use MIDI cc 91 and 93 to set reverb and chorus amount for each MIDI channel independently. For example, if I set 0 for reverb on a MIDI track in Sonar the reverb doesn't get applied to that track. In kX it is always present and it seems that cc doesn't work as it should. Either that or I am doing something the wrong way. I would appreciate any help or at least a pointer to the relevant documentation.

Russ · Mar 29, 2005, 10:40 AM

Open the tweak window for FXMIX2, and adjust the IN levels to what you want (i.e. set In0Level to 0 to have no Reverb/Chorus appled to FXBus 0/1 (wave)). Those sliders effect the Reverb/Chorus levels that are always applied (in conjunction with FX1/FX2 levels). You probably want to turn down In1Level as well, so no effects are applied to midi by default (thus the effect levels only reflect the cc91/cc93 amounts).

Open up the kX Router and set the Send C and Send D amounts (for Synth1/Synth2) to the levels you want applied using cc91/cc93, etc.

-Russ

igor_levicki · Mar 30, 2005, 11:34 AM

Thanks Russ. I will try that. I just wonder why it is not set that way by default?

Russ · Mar 30, 2005, 01:17 PM

I am not sure. Some people like those effects to be available for wave, thus probably why the wave setup is like that. As for midi, the default setting has In1Level fairly low, so it should not have that much of an affect on it. The only thing I wonder about, is why the Send C and Send D amounts are set to 0 by default, thus ignoring cc91/cc93 settings. In any case, it is easly adjusted however you like it, it is just not well documented (i.e. you have to do some digging to figure out how to get it to work like you want).

BTW: The setting I use, that works pretty good for me, has all the sliders in FxMix2 set at 20, and Send C and Send D amounts for Synth1/Synth2 (in kX Router) at approx. 60.

igor_levicki · Mar 30, 2005, 03:14 PM

Well, what I would like to have is no reverb by default and individual CC91 and CC93 settings for each MIDI channel (from 1 to 16) for both synths. Correct me if I am wrong but I think that is not possible with kX?

Under Synth1 and Synth2 there are 16 channels as well as all channels but the later doesn't have sliders. I see send C and send D sliders in individual channels and they are all the way up for every channel? What should I set them to?

EDIT: Ok, I have tried to set all inputs to 0% in fxmix and both reverb and chorus to 100%. However if I set CC91 for a channel to 0 it still gets some reverb applied. I am confused.

Russ · Mar 30, 2005, 03:26 PM

I do not see any reason why you could not do that with KX.

Set In1Level to 0.
Set Send C/D level to something > 0.
Set FX levels to something > 0.

In your midi sequencer, set the cc91/cc93 levels for each channel.
Play your midi, and then adjust Send C/D levels and FX Levels to your liking (adjust it so that the full range of cc91/cc93 settings act the way you want).

You just have to play around with it and figure out how changing one setting affects the other settings, etc.

I use it like that all the time with a program called Guitar Pro, and it applies different reverb/chorus amounts to every channel.

Russ · Mar 30, 2005, 03:32 PM

I have all my Send C / Send D levels at around 60 (just above halfway). By default all 16 midi channels are mapped to FXBux(2/3), so you only need to set it for channel 1, and it will use the same setting for all channels. The Send C and Send D amounts are effected by the FX levels (I think it applies a percentage of whatever settings the FX Levels are at. I have my FX Levels low, at around 20). You will will have to play with different FX Levels and Send C / Send D settings, to find which one gives you the best overall range with your current settings (i.e. see how it responds to different cc91/cc93 settings. You want it so that the highest setting gives you enough of the effect but not too much, and the lowest setting results in no effect).

igor_levicki · Mar 30, 2005, 03:39 PM

Again, correct me if I am wrong, but 100% reverb should get applied if I set CC91 to 127, right? and 0% reverb should be applied if I set CC91 to 0 without having to tweak send C and D and whatnot. So IMHO this is kind of buggy behavior. If nothing else, it is not compatible because same amount of reverb and chorus do not get applied when I play it on another synth.

Russ · Mar 30, 2005, 03:50 PM

No, the cc91/cc93 range depends on other settings. You may have noticed that with the Creative drivers, that the full range (the amount of reverb, etc), between a setting of 127 and 0, was not that much. It is dependant on both the Send C and Send D settings and the Fx1/Fx2 settings. If you keep your FX1 and FX2 settings lower, and the Send C and Send D amounts higher, I think you will have a wider range (setting FX1 and FX2 levels too high results in still having the effect even when cc91 and cc93 are set at minimum). I am not an expert at this or anything, you might get better answers in the midi forum, but my settings worked for me, so that I get a good amount of the effect with cc91/cc93 at max, and no effect with cc91/cc93 at min.

igor_levicki · Mar 30, 2005, 07:44 PM

Problem is that I am not getting reverb muted when CC91 is at 0.

Russ · Mar 30, 2005, 09:26 PM

It sounds like you have the reverb level set to high. You need to adjust the range. With the Reverb at 100 you lose control of the bottom end. Try setting cc91 to zero, and then adjust the reverb slider (or FX1 in FxMix2) down until you can no longer hear the effect. I am not sure how it was with you, but I specifically remember that the reverb/chorus effects with the Creative driver (with midi) was very weak with the default settings (adjusted more toward the lower end). To get any effect (with the Creative drivers), I needed to set cc91/cc93 to 100% (again I am talking about effects using only cc91/cc93, and not EAX, or any of the effects that are on all the time). Of course you could go deeper into the settings and adjust it similair to how it is in kX, to change the range. It is a compromise with the range. If you want to be able to have no effect at zero, then you lose some of the top end (less effect at 100), and vice versa (it is a range within another range, so you will not get 0% and 100% of the full effect using cc91/cc93).

igor_levicki · Mar 30, 2005, 11:51 PM

As far as I know, in Creative drivers CC91=0 means no reverb on the particular channel regardless the setting of reverb slider in eax console and CC91=127 means getting full reverb level which is determined by the reverb slider in eax console. So effectively what should happen is that CC91 range from 0-127 maps to range 0 to whatever % you set on reverb slider. That would be logical to me. But in any case, 0 must be 0, so this must be a bug in kX.

TravelRec. · Mar 31, 2005, 01:58 AM

Hmm, are you sure that you don�t have another output of the FXBus on the reverb�s input so that you have 2 different feeding paths? For me the routing works perfectly.

Russ · Mar 31, 2005, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by igor_levicki

As far as I know, in Creative drivers CC91=0 means no reverb on the particular channel regardless the setting of reverb slider in eax console and CC91=127 means getting full reverb level which is determined by the reverb slider in eax console. So effectively what should happen is that CC91 range from 0-127 maps to range 0 to whatever % you set on reverb slider. That would be logical to me. But in any case, 0 must be 0, so this must be a bug in kX.

Again, I am no expert on this, but the above situation that you describe is basically how it works for me. Make sure your In0Level and and In1Level are set to 0, and that FxBus(0/1) is connected to In0(L/R) and FxBus(2/3) is connected to In1(L/R). Also, FxBus13 should be connected to mono_in1, and FxBus14 to mono_in2. There should be no other connections to FxMix2 by default. Also, make sure that that reverb settings (in the tweak window for reverb) are not unstable, or you could have a situation, where the effect (after an initial input) never ends (it continues working on previous samples forever). With stable filters and In0Level/In1Level set to 0, I can set cc91 to 0, and then adjust the reverb (FX1 slider) all day, and notice no change in sound.

BTW: If you are using Surrounder, check your VRearD setting, it is a delay, and can sound a little like reverb that is on all the time.

igor_levicki · Mar 31, 2005, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TravelRec.

Hmm, are you sure that you don�t have another output of the FXBus on the reverb�s input so that you have 2 different feeding paths? For me the routing works perfectly.

As I said, I am using default DSP setup so far. Card is Audigy 2 ZS (SB0350), driver 3538h. Anyway, picture says more than 1,000 words, see for yourself:

DSP Window:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/audiofreak/dsp.gif

FxMix2:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12...eak/fxmix2.gif

Surrounder+:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12...surrounder.gif

Reverb Lite:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12...everb_lite.gif

kX Router:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12.../kx_router.gif

So except for setting FxMix2 as suggested, Surrounder+ to stereo only and decreasing reverb decay time to 1.8s and predelay to 33ms to suite my taste I haven't touched anything else (mixer, ac97, etc).

I expect that when I input CC91 with 0 as a parameter to have no reverb at all but unfortunately it is still there! I have tried clearing/reinitializing DSP and setting this again but it doesn't help.

Also, I have already reported it here on the forum when I tried 3537 -- I have some sort of stereo crosstalk. When I play any sound from whatever player or program and disconnect front left channel from the epilog I still hear weak sound from left speaker or earpiece. Same goes for right channel. How come nobody noticed this? Is it only Audigy 2 ZS issue? Again, this also happens with default DSP setup.

I am a beginner with kX but I really believe that something is wrong here.