DH Editorial: "Unsupported and bitter"

tsunam · Feb 27, 2006, 03:25 PM

This isn't any new news to users of ATI cards under linux. In fact this topic has been done to death. It's been the same way with the last three generations of ATI high end cards. Having spoken to at least one of the ATI developers for linux. I know that they are in fact working on improving the drivers overall as they can. However, when you consider that the ratio is 30:1 or so for windows to linux developers in that house. Its a bit disparaging to know that.

There is however a good thing that has been around for a while. There are two open source projects for the older ATI cards (still means you are stuck with non accelerated rendering) of the r250 and r300, located at r250.sourceforge.net and r300.sourceforge.net respectively.

This is why its always important to do your research when buying hardware that you want to use in linux. If you don't well you possibly are in the situation the writer of the article is in.

georgia_tech_sw · Feb 27, 2006, 03:44 PM

I am a Linux user of about 5 or 6 years .... ditched Windows forever about 1.5 years ago. I say let ATI continue to shoot themselves in the foot.

Despite being a larger company, ATI has less than 70 full-time Linux employees. That's pathetic considering nVidia has over 400 full-time Linux employees. ATI has forsaken Linux... and so I have forsaken ATI. If they think they're just loosing a few insignificant people... let them think that. However, I consider Linux's current share of 90,000,000+ people a bit more than insignificant, especially when a very good share of those 90 million are in a position to strongly influence the buying decisions and product useage of other consumers.

Every computer I work on that requires a new graphics card or graphics card upgrade ..... Every new computer I build .... will have a nVidia graphics card in it.

When somebody comes to me for advice on what graphics card to buy them... I always show them a nVidia product.

Saist · Feb 28, 2006, 04:45 PM

I originally made this post here:

http://www.sapphiretech.com/en/forum...ead.php?t=1877

The contents of the post follow below:

******

Quote:

at this time there is no Linux support for any of the x1x00 series.

which actually sucks, really.

thought a minute before coming back to edit this. I should explain why I think it sucks.

I disagree with ATi's current stance that they are only developing Linux drivers for the WorkStation market, and that they are not going to support the performance gaming market. While we can look forward to bug fixes and better overall OGL support, we aren't exactly supposed to see any performance benifits that the Windows drivers will see.

Thing is on my 9800 Pro I came to expect performance parity running the same card under windows. Now, what I don't know is if the performance was equal because ATi's overall OGL support was/is just that bad, or if it was because their Linux driver guru is just that good. Or I just had that tweaked of a system.

It is my opinion that treating Linux as a workstation only or server only Operating System is a bad idea overall, if only due to two words: Vendor Lock-In. I'm not real comfortable with the idea of Microsoft being the sole provider of a useful home operating system, I've already had to deal with similiar enviroments in old Unix shops, and I really don't want to go through that again.

The problem I see with not recognizing Linux as a valid Home Operating System and a Valid Gaming operating system is that there is plenty evidence to the contrary that Linux is a great gaming system. Just ask anybody who owns a Playstation2 what they think of their Linux computer, or the PSP although the game library is weaker than the Jaguars. Also in my experience I've had less problems with games that have native Linux binaries available than I have had with Windows, and it is my opinion that any software developer without a declared Linux release roadmap isn't going to fare so well over the years.

I could drone on and on about how Microsoft treats its customers, the relatively poor support Microsoft offers after purchase, or the massive security problems that will no doubt cause a cataclysmic event where upon consumers run screaming from Microsoft. A dream scenario for RMS no doubt.

The reality, however, is that sales of home geared distrobutions like Linspire and Xandros are increasing. Both move more operating systems per year than Apple does, and have done so since 2003. Other debian based systems like Ubuntu and Mepis are on a collective rampage through home users. Sales and download of Linux operating systems are increasing at an ever faster rate, while sales of boxed Xp have flatlined.

There is also the additional problem to global companies that as FireFox erodes away IE marketshare, collectively those companies are having to drop the IE only security holes and bugs... scuse me, ActiveX was supposed to be a feature, and embrance a neutral 3rd party standardized internet. That has allowed many of the more intelligent users to drop the id farce and correctly identify their operating system and browser.

The problem is, for ATi, is that Linux overall, has a much larger pentetration in the home market than many would rather think about.

And treating it as a workstation only or server only operating system doesn't exactly gain ground against Nvidia Green who has caught on that Linux distros are the only realistic upgrade or cross grade path for home users.

From a development standpoint, I also disagree with the stance ATi has taken in reguards to Linux. Fact is, the source code to actually build the OS is freely available to all. It should be easier to yank higher performance out of Linux than out of Windows since you don't have to fight the OS to get anything done.

Now, somewhere along the line, ATi took the position that one of the reasons why they don't focus on Linux is that many of those involved have a build-it-yourself mentality, and would rather do the work on their own.

B.S.

I created Mepisguides explicitly to give Linux users easy to step through guides on how to do things like install graphics drivers. And from the amount of email I got/(still get to be truthful), home users were begging for something easier to understand than typical linux documentation.

Fact is, there is a large market out there who want to use Linux, but don't like the high mental price of entry. Distro's like Linspire, Xandros, Mepis, and Ubuntu lower that price of entry, but when developers resist that... it makes it very difficult.

Yes. There are several Linux users who loathe the GUI and Window manager and love the command prompt.

But they aren't the targeted market for growth.

And right off hand, if ATi wants to continue to match Nvidia in the home market, the Linux support has got to be stepped up.

I would even go so far as to say that I would rather see Linux support made a priority for home entertainment uses. Lets see the ATI Multi-Media center under KDE or Gnome, toss it into an SFF under the TV, pair it against Microsoft Windows Media Center, and see who'se actually the better PVR.

Something tells me, it'd be the ATi MMC.

je.saist
mepisguides.com

Quote:

I just installed a x1300 pro in a new PC running Fedora Core 4 (dual-boot w/ WinXP), and while the card works minimally (I can bring up a GUI no problem, but the speed pretty much stinks), it's clearly not up to par. Does anyone if there are non-ATI drivers out there?? I ran into a similar problem with my sound card, but it turns out there's an org. called the Advanced Linux Sound Architecture that writes drivers for this sort of thing.

Anywho, if anyone has ideas, that'd be great.
Thanks,
Sabrina

I hate to say it, but from what I've read, writing drivers for sound cards is nowhere near as painful as writing drivers for graphics cards.

In direct response to your question, you might want to visit this page : [color=#22229c]http://r300.sourceforge.net/[/color]

that would be my two cents so far.

The_KELRaTH · Mar 6, 2006, 05:07 AM

As far as I can see ATI is complying with the MS stance completely:

Low priority for Linux and OPenGL (any support is just for show)
Support .net to lock drivers into MS code
Low priority for best "customer" features over compliance to MS Directx flaws
(Triple buffer etc)

From MS stance it's like owning ATI without any costs or legal Monopolies issues.

LinuxDude · Mar 6, 2006, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netrat33

Companies migrating is Linux lover's dream, but it's not happening. When they hear there is no real support for linux, not ATI cards, they wont switch. The migration you would most likey see if EVER would be towards Macs. Most likely they'll stick with XP for a long time, then when all the good press about Vista (if unless we get another "Me" edition) comes out, they'll move there.

Thats not really true, companies these days are thinking more about cost then anything else and I work as a Network Engineer/I.T. Operations for a sports statistics company who since they started up have been MS through and through now 10 years later and after learning of some of the hardware requirements of windows vista we have gone the linux route. Fair enough a few of our servers have been running redhat for the past few years but we have just mass migrated almost every PC in the building to Suse linux as I see that distribution as the only real rival to Windows in the next 10 years and not to mention it has excellant support.

Since we have off the top of my head and when i last counted 500 pc's and 8 server racks that all run linux (bar 2 NT servers which will be replaced soon) and 4 machines which will still have windows due to lack of native Macrodobe applications on linux (which hopefully will change one day) why would we carry on using windows which costs hundreds of pounds on licences and not to mention future hardware upgrades required when linux is free and supports almost anything.

Its also not just the company I work for but alot of places where my friends work are also opting for AMD/linux combinations due to power consumption being lower then intel chips and also linux being free and more secure then windows.

So for companies thinking like my place of work and those of my friends you can see even though we may have used ATI cards while using windows if they simply can't even offer basic support comparable to what they offer on XP while their competitor does, we have no option but to go the nvidia route.

I myself am a big ATI fan but i made the mistake of upgrading from an x850xt when it died to an x1800xt assuming that ATI should have some linux drivers coming out soon but I was wrong. I have no probs playing games in linux using my old ati card which i was very happy with but when i can't even get basic 2d driver support for a 320 poung graphics card that has been out for over a year now thats a bit of a joke.

Dark Phoenix · Jun 10, 2006, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_KELRaTH

As far as I can see ATI is complying with the MS stance completely:

Low priority for Linux and OPenGL (any support is just for show)
Support .net to lock drivers into MS code
Low priority for best "customer" features over compliance to MS Directx flaws
(Triple buffer etc)

From MS stance it's like owning ATI without any costs or legal Monopolies issues.

ATI's recent line (the X1x00 line) was developed at Microsoft's request (guess which line is the graphics processor of the XBox 360?); that's why non-Windows support is so shoddy at this point. As for NVidia, Microsoft removed them from the XBox team for an unspecified reason, and in fact from what I understand they were going to abandon that entire line (NForce), except Sony offered them a huge contract to port it to Linux so they could use it in the Playstation3...

As for Linux being hard to use, I've used two distro's in the last 6 months, and I routinely reinstall the system from scratch when the system starts acting really odd. Unlike Windows, reinstalling Linux is just as easy and generally FASTER overall, and the system always works straight off install. Debian and Ubuntu have a relatively simple install interface; Fedora Core's install system (Anaconda) is just as easy to go through as any Windows installer, and you get the added plus of a working system right off the install!

big_D · Jun 11, 2006, 04:05 AM

I upgraded the fglrx drivers to the latest one on the ATi website last week and I finally got 3D support for my Mobility X700!

As to re-installing Linux, yes, it's fairly quick, but saying that, my main machines haven't been re-installed - apart from Distribution upgrades - ever. I've never had any of them start to act oddly or become unstable. They have needed much fiddling and re-configuration during their lives with each version.

The only machine that gets regularly re-installed is the test rig. I put Vista Beta 2 on it yesterday. To quote Juilia Roberts in Pretty Woman: "Mistake, big, huge!" It is so slow! The install took around 2 hours, just for the OS, SUSE can install the OS, applications, Gnome and KDE and have been up and running in an hour!

Dark Phoenix · Jun 11, 2006, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by big_D

I've never had any of them start to act oddly or become unstable.

Well... act unstable because I deleted the wrong file or screwed up the xorg.conf or something stupid like that...

Locke De Avrim · Jun 29, 2006, 06:48 PM

Ok, firstly I don't generally join new forums. I'm quite happy in the online comunity that I'm in. Buuuuuuuut this theard realy realy made me want to speak my mind.

I've used linux & windows for some time, and I love linux as my Development desktop (C++ & Java), but I use windows solely at home... Why ????

Simple games..... Now we all know that MS has the gaming crowd in their pockets, sure you can play Q2, Q3, Q4, Doom 3, UT on linux, but that's only the OpenGL games.

I mean look at the gaming sites, their are alot of great hit smash titles on the shelfs.
- Half Life 2
- Sin : Emergence
- FEAR
- FarCry
- Deus Ex 1 & 2
- C & C Generals
- Morrowwind : Oblivion
- Need for speed series (Underground, Underground 2, Most Wanted)
- Never winter nights.
- Prince of Persia (Sands of time, Worrior Within, Two Throwns)

Now I ask you... what is the one thing all these games have in common ???
Direct X, simple..

I admit, i'm not an expert on GFX development, but I am a developer. thus I choose which technoligies I use when creating software. So why would I make my job (and it is a job for game developers, even if they enjoy it) harder buy using a technoligy that is more frustraiting to work with over one that is easy for me to work with.

Now my perseption is that DX is a far easier tech to work with than OpenGL. (Please correct me if i'm worng, as I don't walk in the GFX Dev circles) so It's easy to see why so many games use DX over Ogl, but what if that was to change, what if Ogl, mind you no... DX is a full game platform, Graphic's, input, sound (and soon physics with DX 10, or so i've heard ). What if the linux / unix / X protocol + Server developers just came together and defined a proper standard gaming platform to compete with DX ??, and what if it even surpassed DX 10 ?? (and don't tell me it can't be done, DX beat both Ogl & 3Dfx's own Glide platforms in the old Vodoo 3 day's when OGL was seen as the best ).

So let's assume that we do have such platform, let's call it OGL (Open Game Library), witch interacts with the kernal & hardware, leaving game developers to code more high level (Pixel Shader's comes to mind) and ever developer is using it for his game, now it's also very easy for the game developers to port this game from windows (their current Main target) to linux / unix / any OGL capable OS.... Soon all games will come out for both, then the whole " I have window's for games" argument becomes redundent, people start to switch to *nix as their OS.

With that Graphic's Card companies (ATI & Nvidia) will allocate more reasores to the alternive OGL driver & OS's. this whole thing would start very very slowly, but pickup speed and snowball on MS like there's now tomorrow. And MS know's this, why do you think their pumping so much effort into DX, I mean the next windows version (vista) is going to run it's new spiffy interface off Direct X !

So in closing I believe their in one way that the linux comunity can get proper driven support from all / 90% of the hardware makers out there (Graphic's & any other) is to get off it ass & write a Open source gaming platform. Hey I've even got a good name for it! Call it GoOS-XP "Gaming on Open Source - X server Platform" (pun intended).

As with all GPL things, feel free to use the name I mentioned here for your uber source-forge project, just remember to link to this post to show the world where the "creation of the name comes form"

Man! that was a lot of charaters to type, I better not read any more post's while i'm stoned, I might end up tiping my fingers to the bone!

big_D · Jun 30, 2006, 02:00 AM

Wow, that was thread necormancy!

As an update while I'm here, the latest version of the drivers have given me 3D support for my Mobility X700 chipset on my laptop. Not sparking performance, but it is good enough.

Locke De Avrim · Jun 30, 2006, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by big_D

Wow, that was thread necormancy!

As an update while I'm here, the latest version of the drivers have given me 3D support for my Mobility X700 chipset on my laptop. Not sparking performance, but it is good enough.

Oh Snap!
Well that just show's you... you should never reply on a forum when your stoned

Anyway's since I did all the effort of registering, I can just as well join for good.
So...
"Hello Everybody" nice to meet you guy's at DH