DH Editorial: "Unsupported and bitter" - Page 2

The_Neon_Cowboy · Feb 23, 2006, 02:03 AM

Since where on the topic I offer an opposing view from the windows side
of the fence:

I’m already aware of most of what kombatant has said here. I do believe
Linux deserves some level of support. Meaning they should at lest have
Drivers available for their use. As many of you know already ATI has made
efforts to improve thier linux support.In this regard they have gotten better
but don’t think Linux users are really seeing the kind of movement they wanted.

Beyond that the debate begins. But as bitter as this may sound, we have
to face facts windows is and for the foreseeable future continue to be the
dominate OS. Taking this into account the user base of Linux is usually
the advanced or specific user. Where is their setting up severs, corporate
environments, system critical systems. So the mass majority of this minority
is doing nothing much to do with video, gaming, and graphics lest from what
I’ve seen. I don’t pretend to be any sort of expert on this topic but having
tried Linux in the past it not for the faint of heart. Nothing like going from
feeling you could tackle anything an old an OS can throw at and “old hand”
to Linux where you feel like a new user born just yesterday.

Until there’s more software support by game makers, developers etc.. I don’t
see Linux moving too much. Until we see a “windows like” levels of Linux
flavored OSes. With as simple ease of use and installation I don’t see the every
day user going “I’, switching to Linux”. I’m not the every day user and self
learned windows back in the days of windows for work groups 3.11. and
learned as I went along all the way up to the current OSes. I’ve tried Linux
several times along the way. Thought it’s come leaps and bounds I still can’t
get it down. I usually end up with an unbootable OS and some sort of kernel
panic. It almost like it needs someone to teach you how to use it. Cause when
you start learning it like you already need to know so many things.

Not to mention in that market share % this isn’t “one OS” where are talking
about either there are many distributions they are quite different. There is no
ones take all. Though we have all herds of the big players there are hundreds
of deferent distributions (well over 400) some being general so being purpose
specific. I’m sure these different distributions many are based off other but these
changes. Could mean trouble and massive challenges in way of providing driver
support. I’d like to see one distribution raise to power among the Linux crowd
and it get all the Linux support. As windows has in the desktop world.

As you said you self windows have gaming which is the primary thing
a good 95%Are shelling out the big bucks for. Also find it interesting
that so many linux users seem to run a dual boot configuration with
windows. Which is primarily used for video and gaming etc. So many
of those “Linux users” also count as “windows users” regardless of which
is their primary OS.

I do see why windows steals the line light and I’, sure you do to. Also Like
Any company when you look at the numbers and windows is where it’s at.
Do you think that people would be willing to pay even more money for their
shiny new hardware so that they can have extra money to spend on Linux
support? No! Do you think the windows users would like receive less support
in exchange for Linux getting more support? No! So this is a preverbal “catch 22”
where you can’t win for losing. There is only so much time, money, and
resources available. So their by the numbers, approach to where resources
are dedicated makes since. I think a big part of it may come down to what
their competitors doing as well.Windows is going to be the one who get the
most attention it just the way things work. Since after all the mass majority
of their user base is using a flavor of windows. Don’t get me wrong Like
I said before I do believe Linux deserves some level of support. But other
then that is clearly debatable.

Well that my two bits, (be gental)

RIV@NVX · Feb 23, 2006, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zerodamage

How I see it is this. If you want a gaming system; do not use Linux. It doesn't matter if you are using Nvidia or ATI. Most games run on Windows; not Linux. Most of the support is available on Windows, not Linux. If you are foolish enough to buy a high end card for gaming and are using Linux, then you should have done your research. These types of rants and whining articles just annoy me. There is no secret that Linux has a small market share and that very few games actually run on it. So why in the hell are you using it to play games knowing the support for it sucks and then go off and cry about it?

I know that ATI said that there would be drivers BUT you should also know that driver support for linux has been nearly non existant to begin with. Add that with the fact that few games support the linux os. I really do not know where the big surprise is.

I can play almost all games I care about on Linux: Quake III (http://icculus.org/quake3/), NWN, UT2004, AAO (...) work natively, while Diablo II, StarCraft, WarCraft 3 work over Wine. It may not be gaming platform, but it is certainly possible to play games.

However, there is one more thing - ATI doesn't support anything other than Linux. Look here - it also mentions FreeBSD and Solaris drivers. I know these are not gaming platforms at all, but hell, you can play Quake III on both with proper drivers.

Kombatant · Feb 23, 2006, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Neon_Cowboy

Since where on the topic I offer an opposing view from the windows side
of the fence:

I’m already aware of most of what kombatant has said here. I do believe
Linux deserves some level of support. Meaning they should at lest have
Drivers available for their use. As many of you know already ATI has made
efforts to improve thier linux support.In this regard they have gotten better
but don’t think Linux users are really seeing the kind of movement they wanted.

Beyond that the debate begins. But as bitter as this may sound, we have
to face facts windows is and for the foreseeable future continue to be the
dominate OS. Taking this into account the user base of Linux is usually
the advanced or specific user. Where is their setting up severs, corporate
environments, system critical systems. So the mass majority of this minority
is doing nothing much to do with video, gaming, and graphics lest from what
I’ve seen. I don’t pretend to be any sort of expert on this topic but having
tried Linux in the past it not for the faint of heart. Nothing like going from
feeling you could tackle anything an old an OS can throw at and “old hand”
to Linux where you feel like a new user born just yesterday.

Until there’s more software support by game makers, developers etc.. I don’t
see Linux moving too much. Until we see a “windows like” levels of Linux
flavored OSes. With as simple ease of use and installation I don’t see the every
day user going “I’, switching to Linux”. I’m not the every day user and self
learned windows back in the days of windows for work groups 3.11. and
learned as I went along all the way up to the current OSes. I’ve tried Linux
several times along the way. Thought it’s come leaps and bounds I still can’t
get it down. I usually end up with an unbootable OS and some sort of kernel
panic. It almost like it needs someone to teach you how to use it. Cause when
you start learning it like you already need to know so many things.

Not to mention in that market share % this isn’t “one OS” where are talking
about either there are many distributions they are quite different. There is no
ones take all. Though we have all herds of the big players there are hundreds
of deferent distributions (well over 400) some being general so being purpose
specific. I’m sure these different distributions many are based off other but these
changes. Could mean trouble and massive challenges in way of providing driver
support. I’d like to see one distribution raise to power among the Linux crowd
and it get all the Linux support. As windows has in the desktop world.

As you said you self windows have gaming which is the primary thing
a good 95%Are shelling out the big bucks for. Also find it interesting
that so many linux users seem to run a dual boot configuration with
windows. Which is primarily used for video and gaming etc. So many
of those “Linux users” also count as “windows users” regardless of which
is their primary OS.

I do see why windows steals the line light and I’, sure you do to. Also Like
Any company when you look at the numbers and windows is where it’s at.
Do you think that people would be willing to pay even more money for their
shiny new hardware so that they can have extra money to spend on Linux
support? No! Do you think the windows users would like receive less support
in exchange for Linux getting more support? No! So this is a preverbal “catch 22”
where you can’t win for losing. There is only so much time, money, and
resources available. So their by the numbers, approach to where resources
are dedicated makes since. I think a big part of it may come down to what
their competitors doing as well.Windows is going to be the one who get the
most attention it just the way things work. Since after all the mass majority
of their user base is using a flavor of windows. Don’t get me wrong Like
I said before I do believe Linux deserves some level of support. But other
then that is clearly debatable.

Well that my two bits, (be gental)

I won't be gental, just gentle

You are right about Windows having a dominant grip on the OS market. But, as I already said in the editorial, this is not just about what's going on now. Look at where Desktop Linux was 3 years ago, and where it is today. The progress is amazing, and there's no visible sign of it stopping anytime soon. At some point, there needs to be some forward-thinking on ATI's side of the fence. Desktop Linux is here to stay, and people will use it more and more as time goes by. The SLI paradigm I brought up in my article is there for a reason: SLI is used by even less people, and ATI thought it could get away by not supporting a multi-card solution. You saw what happened though, and it was "forced" to respond with Crossfire.

For the current situation I blame, not only ATI, but us journalists as well. Most journos who are dealing with graphics cards are totally clueless as far as Desktop Linux is concerned; which means that ATI can have a lousy ATI driver and actually get away with it. If more journalists reported ATI's inefficiences (and nVidia's, the "green" driver is far from perfect), we would be in a much better state of affairs right now.

Al_Vampyre · Feb 23, 2006, 04:52 AM

Its one of those vicious cycle situations isn't it, I mentioned in a thread yesterday that I would love to be able to game in Linux and then I could hose XP altogether. Don't get me wrong, I think XP is prolly MS best OS to date, but when you see the direction Vista is going and the fact that I will now no longer buy certain games I want because I would need to carry my discs about if I want to game on my laptop there needs to be a viable alternative.

Lack of competition slows development, if the other OS's disappear altogether there is no need for MS to continue to make Windows better, and the day we wake up and discover that we can't do something we used to be able to do with our PC's because MS says we can't/shouldn't will be a sad day for all of us.

If hardware companies like ATI and NVidia don't provide alternative OS drivers for high end components then we will never be able to game on anything else other than windows and at that point you might as well give in and buy a console!!

bug77 · Feb 23, 2006, 05:26 AM

Eh, Ati's stance is typical "we can't make money out of it, we don't care about it". No article in the world is going to change that.
Of course they'd be selling more cards along with proper driver support, but apparently a few % more doesn't equal the cost of them actually writing drivers...

Eman Resu · Feb 23, 2006, 07:11 AM

You people are concentrating on the gaming side and forgetting about all the workstation business (maya, blender, and such), and the fact that the linux desktop environment is moving towards OGL accelerated graphics, which doesn't work in Ati drivers. And the people out there using linux is bigger than you may think, and often these are the people who are asked about what card to buy. Guess which one will the recommend.

Netrat33 · Feb 23, 2006, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eman Resu

You people are concentrating on the gaming side and forgetting about all the workstation business (maya, blender, and such), and the fact that the linux desktop environment is moving towards OGL accelerated graphics, which doesn't work in Ati drivers. And the people out there using linux is bigger than you may think, and often these are the people who are asked about what card to buy. Guess which one will the recommend.

Then I guess you should be complaining about there professional FireGl cards and not the x1800 series which are GAMING cards

Kombatant · Feb 23, 2006, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netrat33

Then I guess you should be complaining about there professional FireGl cards and not the x1800 series which are GAMING cards

The X1000 series of cards for both Desktops and Laptops is comprised of more than the X1800 cards you know

Netrat33 · Feb 23, 2006, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kombatant

The X1000 series of cards for both Desktops and Laptops is comprised of more than the X1800 cards you know

ok..*sigh* x1300, x1600....there all gaming cards. Just not high end.

Better?

Kombatant · Feb 23, 2006, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netrat33

ok..*sigh* x1300, x1600....there all gaming cards. Just not high end.

Better?

If better means you invalidating your own argument, yup, that's definitely better.

Joovilhar · Feb 23, 2006, 08:34 AM

I came here from The Inquirer. It's official - you're famous.

I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. If ATi's product does not do what you want it to do, don't buy it. It's really simple! If NVidia is the only manufacturer that supports the OS of your choice, then you're going to be buying an NVidia card. Banging your head against the wall doesn't serve your needs. If I were you, I'd eBay the ATi and buy an NVidia.

To be honest, I'm not a Linux fan - I've used it, but I consider it too immature and unstable for my needs. Instead, on an x86 platform, I would go for either Solaris 10 x86 or FreeBSD. Both have been around for longer than Linux (Solaris has been constantly refined since 1982), and the developers are a bit more strict about what goes in them. Guess what? NVidia supports both of these OSes, besides Linux. They don't even try to hide it - you'll see Solaris x86 and FreeBSD drivers on the same page as Windows and Linux! That's what I call vendor support.

Whining at ATi for not supporting your OS of choice will not change anything. ATi will respond when they see their market share being punished because nobody wants to buy their cards. If ATi cannot respond, they will go out of business - that is the way of things.

mi1stormilst.co · Feb 23, 2006, 08:39 AM

I think 5 months is a long time to wait, I also think 2D support in LINUX is the least you should be able to expect. Having said that, ATI as a company that needs to and should set priorities ... really only 5% of their driver development resources should go towards LINUX. I know that I will ruffle some feathers but the user base is so small it will really never impact their core target market. Unfortunatly I am still waiting for a full version of the VIDEO (AVIVO) tool. So yeah it looks like ATI does need to step up here )-:

PS: Also complaing about the resolution support is just plain silly. The FLAT PANEL technology is so horrible it doesn't work right even when the drivers support them. Being limited to 1 native resolution, low color depth, potential dead pixels, and short product life is totally unacceptable.

brutusmaximus · Feb 23, 2006, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joovilhar

Whining at ATi for not supporting your OS of choice will not change anything. ATi will respond when they see their market share being punished because nobody wants to buy their cards. If ATi cannot respond, they will go out of business - that is the way of things.

Actually I think it does change things, quite a few aspects of this industry are based on public persception. this article is nothing new, however rather than uneducated forum rantings from people barely able of stringing two words together, Pete has put it very eloquently onto a website that ATI take very seriously. OS support shows that nvidia have the staff capability and ability to get drivers out the door for any OS which people use. Windows XP? sure no problem. Linux, sure no problem. Mac OS? sure no problem - almost all new high end macs are nvidia based. What about ATI? it seems they couldnt care less about Mac or Linux or any other non windows platform. is this important? well maybe its not losing them masses of money but they are losing face and they are damaging their reputation. To be No1, you have to commit, you have to deliver and you have to be better than everyone else. Only Nvidia right now fulfill that.

What about this interview a long time ago on Driverheaven with the ATI CEO Dave Orton? http://www.driverheaven.net/dhinterviews/daveorton/

Allan: What about Linux driver development? This market is expanding each year, are there any plans to increase driver updates or support for this market? How important to you feel the Linux market is to ATI?

Dave: Linux is about 3-6% of the current desktops in the world. As such, a while back, we introduced Linux support under the CATALYST umbrella. That means a steady and consistent release cycle. In fact, once we get going with the Linux postings (very shortly), we will be updating our Linux driver every two months. This shows that we are very committed and serious about supporting the Linux community.

Was he lying ? I doubt it and im sure he had the best of intentions, however I dont think they are capable of delivering. And that is concerning.

brutusmaximus · Feb 23, 2006, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mi1stormilst.co

PS: Also complaing about the resolution support is just plain silly. The FLAT PANEL technology is so horrible it doesn't work right even when the drivers support them. Being limited to 1 native resolution, low color depth, potential dead pixels, and short product life is totally unacceptable.

That is simply a ridiculous and ill founded statement. ATI's and Nvidia's drivers support all the major panels in windows frequently without even a monitor inf - for these companies to not support such popular technology would be suicidal.

The point Pete makes is 100% accurate -- ATI's linux drivers have serious issues with any widescreen resolution. and im not talking about 3d gaming either, just simple 2D.

Netrat33 · Feb 23, 2006, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brutusmaximus

.... Linux, sure no problem. Mac OS? sure no problem - almost all new high end macs are nvidia based. What about ATI? it seems ....

Actually yes they do more support for Macs being the number 2 OS (Number 2 in popularity not in quality). But even here, Mac's still aren't a gaming system.