jcox

As the IT technician in the University I work at, I get to spec new PCs
for our computer labs. We've just put in a new workshop and I went
for nVIDIA specifically because of this issue. There are 45 seats in
the lab with at least 5 more PCs to come so assuming ~$500 per
card that's $25,000 ATI lost because I'm not willing to be stuck with
a dud Linux box in future.

Maybe that'll make ATI sit up and notice...

PS This purchasing decision was entirely my own and in no way
reflects the general policy of my employer.

bug77

But they don't care about things like this as long as they can sign a deal with Dell and sell 500.000 crappy X1300 cards, no one will ever ask for any drivers besides what they get on CD with the computer. And it's not really ATi's fault the market is like this...

Netrat33

May I ask what type of video card your lab is using and for what?

__________________
A64 on Asus A8V Deluxe Bios 1.7
X800XTPE Stock speed (built by ATI)
1 Gig RAM
160 SATA seagate HD
MX1000 Mouse

jcox

But they will care if places like Munich and Korea go through with their
Linux migration plans. A whole city represents a big chunk of purchasing
power. OK, in the scheme of things my lab doesn't show on their radar
but at least its evidence that the ATI on linux snafu affects strategic IT investment.
What happens when Vista comes along and corporations face the prospect of a
massive hardware upgrade or to jump ship? What's quality Linux support worth
to them then?

Joovilhar

Well, I don't know about Dell, but Sun is already shipping its workstations with NVidia cards. Given that said workstations are certified for Solaris, SuSE and Red Hat Linux - plus Windows 64-bit edition, I guess it's not surprising that NVidia is the only game in town.

Given the excitement the industry has for running rock-solid Solaris apps on cheap and cheerful x86 hardware, you can rest assured that Sun will sell more than half a million of these workstations.

As has already been said, for the increasing number of government (and public) projects that are obliged to use open source (which will mean Linux for the most part), ATi is effectively ruling itself out. If ATi holds its course, it will find that 5 years down the road, its percentage of Linux users will still be around 5% (or maybe less), while NVidia's may be far higher.

This is good news for NVidia, as it means it will be able to command market share where ATi cannot compete due to a lack of driver support. But it will be bad news for ATi, who will find to its cost that Linux upgrade cycles are a lot slower than Windows ones - and all those potential customers it could have had are now happily using NVidia for the next 10+ years.

I expect a large exodus to Linux/Solaris/FreeBSD soon, as Windows Vista is turning a lot of people off. Combined with the need for massive and expensive hardware upgrades, a loss of control over their own investment and BS policies (like requiring a new OS licence if you change your motherboard), many companies may just decide that a non-Windows OS offers better value for money at the end of the day. Many more people will just stick with XP beyond its end of life date. Hell, I know people who are still using Windows 98 and NT 4.00...

madmatty

Before they can worry about linux support there has to be a linux that can establish itself as THE linux. There needs to be one distrobution that is distinctively linux that both ati and nvidia can support 100%. Lindows is probably the closest environment for this goal as it sells it sef as he complete linux desktop envonment that can rivel windows. With windows everyone has the same base instalation so that drivers can be implemented 100% properly which isnt true if everyone decided to migrate to what ever linux distrobution takes there fansy.

Vista is deffinatly going to make people think about what they want in an os before installing the insanely bloated desktop that is vista (well the x86 beta is insanely huge) and it doesnt even offer that much over XP bar a new UI which although looks prettier is no faster and just beggs for yet another system upgrade to cope with its requirments. The os is supposed to be just an interface, not a resource stealing hog thats takes all the power away from a new machine before we launch our apps and games that really need that power :/

All that said, linux is in no shape to take over from where xp leaves off so users are not likely to change sides. It has very little support and probably the most important aspect is the games. Unless youre fully IT literate linux isnt even a concideration. and i guess this is what ATI see's too.

__________________
Asrock 939DS2, AMD X2 3800 @ 5000 (10x260 1.35v), Rad X1950 PRO (621/735)
2gig Corsair 3500PRO (1T DDR434), Audigy 2, Tagan530w.
Cat6.12 3DMark01 - 30368 3DMark03 - 16129 3DMark05 - 10081 PCMark05 - 5861 3DMark06 - 4891

jcox

We mostly needed to support Maya and OpenGL across Mac and PC
(which means Windows now and Linux in the near future). Another consideration
was to accommodate Apple Final Cut Studio which at the time we spec'd this
up self-selected nvidia because it looked like Motion would only run hardware accellerated
with pixel shaders under OS X.4 + GeForce. Other areas support games design which obviously locks us into XP but since we can get bulk discounts on PCs to
one spec they got nvidia too.

The main point is that I have to think where we'll be in 5 years time -- these PCs
aren't like home games machines you can update every 12-18 months. I have to
factor in as much flexibility as possible which means upgrade paths _and_
migration paths. OK, ATI caught up in Linux support since we started the
lab project but they still don't do anything like SLI. Doubling up the old GPUs
so we only have to buy half the number of replacement gfx cards is a major
saving that we can't aford to waste so SLI support on LInux is a must have for us. We also won't be switching to Vista.
Ever. If at all possible.

If Macrodobe ever port Flash/Director/Photoshop to Linux I'll be immediately
relegating XP to a legacy OS and right now nvidia looks like the better bet.

SFOSOK

I would still have to say their x1900 series looks pretty damn good its just ugly, hot, and loud.I don't have linux but I feel bad for u that do. I guess Nv is the way to go for you guys for a while.

__________________
*Warning* - Explicit Content Preceeding



METAL!!

Calson

This is not about user base, it's about perception. Sure, there may not be all that many Linux gamers compared to windows gamers, but that is not the point. When a company decides to migrate their 20,000 pc's to linux, all they will hear is that ATI doesn't support linux. They don't want to get into the details of what is or isn't supported. Therefore, those 20,000 pc's will have nVidia cards in them. That is a lot of lost sales for ATI. And, since most companies have about a 3 year replacement cycle, that is 20,000 lost sales every 3 years, that will be very hard to get back, because companies don't change their configurations just for kicks..

Netrat33

Once again I'm asking, what video card are you suggesting? Not brand, the video card.

__________________
A64 on Asus A8V Deluxe Bios 1.7
X800XTPE Stock speed (built by ATI)
1 Gig RAM
160 SATA seagate HD
MX1000 Mouse

Netrat33

Companies migrating is Linux lover's dream, but it's not happening. When they hear there is no real support for linux, not ATI cards, they wont switch. The migration you would most likey see if EVER would be towards Macs. Most likely they'll stick with XP for a long time, then when all the good press about Vista (if unless we get another "Me" edition) comes out, they'll move there.

__________________
A64 on Asus A8V Deluxe Bios 1.7
X800XTPE Stock speed (built by ATI)
1 Gig RAM
160 SATA seagate HD
MX1000 Mouse

ronnn

I really support the idea of linux and think Ati should offer good support. On the other hand - I have tried to install linux at least 6 times and I suck. I would almost welcome owning a vid card that had no support - as I will likely try again. ATi needs to support linux, but linux also needs to become more user friendly to gain a larger user base. This cut and paste or typing in large complicated commands just to install java or whatever is really 60's. The learning curve is just to much for simpletons like myself.


edit: Comparing this to the sli debate is just silly and has nothing to do with the subject. Both those companies have so many past sins, that an off topic flame war is always sure to follow.

rpb01r

But then, it doesn't say that Linux users affect _all_ decisions, just some. From a business point of view, I would be very interested in improving my market share by 5% --- this is make-or-break, particularly for my hypothetical big fat management bonus. However, it does imply that Linux users affect some decisions, and that would be an acceptable assertion. Indeed, if Joe Public knows a Linux user, he
probably knows him as "that computer guy" and will probably ask for his opinion. Windows users, Apple users, Solaris users and FreeBSD users will also have opinions.

Joe Public, however, most certainly doesn't go to sites like Tom's Hardware. Joe Public goes to the local computer shop and gets fleeced into buying some PC or other. That means he's probably going to his house with a generic box under his arm, some five-year-old onboard graphics adapter and a copy of Windows XP Home edition. Joe Public probably doesn't care about games for it either, because Joe Public has a Playstation or an Xbox for that sort of thing.

Just for the record, a friend of mine owns a computer shop. If a customer wants a machine, it'll have an Nvidia card in it. He's had some trouble with ATi cards on Windows in the past, so now he just doesn't use them. I don't know how many machines he's built, but his influence is carrying --- not to so many people on the global scale, but enough guys like him do make a difference. This is a little off-topic, but I'm just using it to illustrate a point. It depends who you irk. He might be a little irrational (he would only stock two brands of modem as he had trouble with the others) but then he has a degree of influence.

This gives carte blanche to Nvidia for Linux, and they'll quite happily mop it up. Looking around our labs here, there is only one machine with an ATi graphics card in it, and that's a Rage 128. Here's why: our suppliers have to make sure that when we put in an order for a thousand visualisation workstations, they've got to work. They will stick Nvidia cards in the box because they know they won't get support
calls from us.

Although I don't quite understand the general decision to keep drivers closed (there have been countless arguments with Nvidia by people elsewhere), by providing a half-decent driver they provide choice. ATi's best plan for improving "speed/image/stability for xp" would be to open their drivers. Anyone who has worked in computer hardware development will know that a massive proportion of time is spent on the drivers. If I, as a company owner, realise I can just make a reasonable driver, then release the code, and a bunch of guys will fix it up and maintain it for free, I'm going to jump at that chance.

Don't forget: servers need graphics cards too. Although no-one really cares about the 3D performance of a server (maybe that is a generalisation), people are going to want a more 'supported' card. Even if this is just a psychological choice, if card A supports Windows, but card B supports Windows, Linux and FreeBSD, and there's
little to choose between them, buyers will go for card B every time.

Take it easy,
-r

Calson

Munich: 14,000 desktops migrating to Linux
New Zealand's ministry of education put Suse linux on it's school's desktops

There are many other stories, like Paris' planned migration, or South Africa's revenue service. Read the news.. It is happening..

Netrat33

I know. And I've also read the stories of them hopping BACK because it's actually more expensive (time) using it due to lack of support.

__________________
A64 on Asus A8V Deluxe Bios 1.7
X800XTPE Stock speed (built by ATI)
1 Gig RAM
160 SATA seagate HD
MX1000 Mouse

=JpS=SgtRock

I had to register to respond to the misperceptions, misinformation, and general all around FUD that I've been reading in this thread.

First off there's this:

Red herring. There is no need to get to a single distribution before ATI and Nvidia can support it. Driver support primarily affects the kernel, which is common to all of the distributions. The actual distributions are fine supporting an incredible range of hardware for this reason. ATI and Nvidia have already solved the support issue. It's just that ATI isn't putting near enough effort into doing it right.

There have been two options for Nvidia cards for a while that work for every distribution out there; the open source nv driver that works for 2D, and Nvidia's proprietary, binary only driver for solid OpenGL 3D support.

Nvidia, btw, chose a development methodology years ago that lets them leverage a single codebase for all of their drivers. There's a very thin shim of software that they have to write and maintain for each platform that they support. That's why they can support Windows, Linux, MacOSX, all the Unices, etc. That puts them light years ahead of ATI in many ways.

Then there's this:

Uhh, no. First off, id software's entire game line runs under Linux, as does UT, UT2003, UT2004, and UT2007 (forthcoming). Neverwinter Nights, America's Army, Enemy Territory, Savage 2 (forthcoming), and X2:The Threat (forthcoming very soon) all have native Windows and Linux clients. Some of them have MacOSX clients as well. I'm sure you've heard of those.

Other lesser known games include Heavy Gear 2, Alpha Centauri, and X-Plane. X-Plane, btw, is considered by many pilots to be the best flight simulator out there. It can model any plane ever built (and some that existed only in someone's fevered imagination ). It has a 7 DVD set that covers 80% of the Earth's terrain, and another one that covers part of Mars.

The list above is by no means complete. It's only meant to show that there's a pretty wide variety of genres supported already. The interesting point to note is that the number and quality of available cross platform games continues to grow. There is clearly a growing number of game software development companies that see the Linux/Mac OSX market as a viable one.

There's also the capability to run many native Windows games using either wine and/or Cedega. This support varies from perfect to tolerable depending upon the game and the vendor's willingness to work with the wine project team and/or Transgaming.

Umm, no again. Actually, Joe Public doesn't even know that those sites exist. When he wants to know what kind of new desktop or laptop that he wants to buy, he goes to three primary sources; TV ads, print ads, and word of mouth. Of the two, he probably relies most heavily on a combination of the TV ads and word of mouth. His source for the word of mouth is going to be his geek buddy or cousin. That's where the information about Linux and Mac OSX is really spreading from. It's slow at first, but the base grows geometrically. It's probably the single biggest reason that the Linux desktop has slowly but steadily continued to take the installed base share away from Windows.

This was a valid concern in the past. There's good news on this point, however. I would strongly recommend downloading an ISO image for Knoppix, SimplyMepis, Ubuntu, or Kubuntu LiveCD and burning it to a disk. Then just stick it in your CD-ROM drive and boot! It'll give you a chance to explore Linux without having to worry about affecting your Windows drive(s) at all. Heck, if you're hesitant to burn an image, go to CheapBytes and order one for about $5. That'll give you a chance to explore a lot of Linux apps without having to make any sort of permanent commitment.

Quarter

Linux is ready for Prime Time now!
Company's that are so short sighted as to not see the turning tide will be left behind.

jec0s

I've used Linux for two years now on ATI based chips and totally completely agree with this article!

ATI needs to wake up, they say Linux is a small portion, well guess why? B/C anyone that has an ATI card has to suffer from its horrid driver that is rubbish compared to nvidia's driver.

And guys, Please have used linux more than once recently to argue with us. Saying Lindows (which is now Linspire) is the best to head Linux is the most ridiculus statement I've ever heard, and I bet many linux users would agree.

Get on it ATI, or I start recommending only nvidia (which i've never did).

ronnn

I had no problems with affecting my windows as I have 2 hard drives and the dual boot was no sweat. My last problem was wanting to install java - so as to play go online at kiseido. I cut and paste and edited until I wasn't sure if I had wrecked my install. But I never did get that java plug installed. Actually not sure if I have ever been able to install any program - if it doesn't come preinstalled with the ubuntu version - I can't seem to get it working. I can run windows or dos and solve any conflicts or whatever, but linux has me beat. The idea of installing any vid drivers and doing what it takes to run games is just scary. Now with windows buy a new printer or camera, drop in the install driver disk and it works - Linux needs to become easier if general home use acceptance is to go up. I am not totally computer stupid and family/friends actually often ask for help. I do support the idea of open source and hate huge monopolies like microsoft and would like nothing better than to run linux, but unless I decide to sacrifice the time to take a course - can't even get it to do what I want.

DHR

This seems funny from someone who boast " A64 on Asus A8V Deluxe Bios 1.7" in his sig. The most sensible way of exploiting the AMD 64 capabilities on the desktop is with Linux. WinXP 64 Bit Edition is much less mainstream (no significant 64-bit software, lots of missing drivers).

(I've been using only 64-bit Linux on my notebook and desktop for a year and a half. I don't play games so my experience may not matter to you.)

DHR

Very useful article. I just registered so I could respond.

I have a Dell 30" LCD monitor that requires "dual link" DVI to drive it. It is fairly difficult to find dual link cards in the PC world.

- there are a bunch of dual link cards for Apples because the Apple 30" LCD requires this and has been out for a while. One such card will work on the PC but is expensive and old and AGP: ATI 9600 Pro PC & Mac Edition.

- some "workstation" cards (ATI FireGL, nVidia Quadra) support dual link, but are quite expensive.

- nVidia 7800 cards (expensive)

- ATI Radeon 1000 family cards. Some are inexpensive.

I bought an ATI Radeon 1300, hoping for Linux support. Why was I foolish enough to think that it might support Linux? Because
(1) the ATI FAQ says that "Radeon 8500 and later" cards are supported by the driver (http://www.ati.com/products/catalyst/linux.html#2)
(2) when I phoned pre-sales tech support (hard to find the number!) they quoted the FAQ.
(3) I assumed that the open source radeon driver would work because the card would be upward compatible

I don't care much about speed nor 3d acceleration. As a bonus, the 1300 didn't have a fan (I hate noise). But it didn't work in Linux, except with the VESA driver. As the article pointed out, there is no VESA resolution to match my LCD (2560x1600). I even looked at the VESA BIOS to see if I could add the resolution, but I decided it wasn't worth my time. (I should point out that there were some funny artifacts on my screen when I used the ATI drivers under WinXP; I didn't trouble-shoot that because lack of Linux support vetoed the card.)

So I've ended up with an nVidia 7800GTX which may never be used for 3d! I replaced my computer's power supply just to support this card. What a waste of money and electricity. (The Dell 7800GTX has a non-standard cooler which is reasonably quiet but requires 2.5 slots.)

What should ATI do?

1) release enough specification so that the xorg Radeon driver can be made to support the x1000 family. This costs very little: the open source community would most likely do the real work. This should take no time. It ought to have been done 5 months ago.

2) update the proprietary Linux drivers to handle the x1000 family.

3) [utopian] release enough specifications that an open source driver can accelerate 3d operations. ATI did this for (I think) 9200 and lower cards. See http://ftp.x.org/pub/X11R7.0/doc/html/radeon.4.html

ATI is my home-town team. But they've lost me as a customer, at least for now.

brutusmaximus

You make a VERY good point and one that has been overlooked, if ATI dont have the resources or time, then release it to the community to develop themselves, some of the teams and individuals out there are more than capable of improving the drivers if ATI dont want to.

jec0s

I just hope ATI wakes up. The time Linux is really growing and ATI is still struggling to support it (when they can't release for a new kernel within a month thats a sign they aren't trying hard enough).

If they can deliver the catalyst driver on windows, you know they just aren't trying.

GeneralClaymore

This one of the reason when I install linux, I stop using it in like 2-3 later while dual boot. I dont feel like having to go to the command line, type in the command to install the drivers. Then go in nano and edit the driver into that then reboot.

Then notice I mess up, go back into nano and try to fix it. I agree if it was just click to install it without having to do all of the un needed steps then people would use it more.

I used like 5 or 6 diffent linux Distros. I would use Lindows but we all know its POS. I just dont feel like doing all of that just to install drivers, I see it as a time waster.

Like make 2 vers of it, One for those that just want to install the drivers windows style and ones for those that like the way you install them in linux. Then it be easier for Avg joes to use it.

If dos and dosshell was updated and supprted D3d and openGL I would use that instead of either .

__________________

big_D

Where to start, this discussions has covered a lot of topics...

Linux users don't have any influence? As somebody else said, the average Joe doesn't know anything about graphics cards or where to go online to find out. They ask their techy friends or their support partner. When speccing for friends, family or customers, I always specify nVidia if I can, because I know it won't cause problems, whereas ATi has always been problematic in my experience, whether under Windows or Linux.

As to suppliers having to support different distributions, as has been said, the core Linux Kernel and the X layer are common to most distributions, it is the additional software and tools which make the distribution unique, so as long as the driver supports the Kernel and either Xfree86 or X.org then it doesn't really matter which distribution you go for.

Some like SUSE will automatically load the nVidia drivers for you during your first online update!

It is sad situation for ATi when the "best" nVidia set-up for 3D under Linux is a SLI set-up of FX7800 family cards, whilst the "best" ATi card for 3D is a Radeon 9250! (That is the model number that is usually bandied around in the Linux newsgroups and forums as being the latest to get 3D support from ATi ISTR).

I have a number of desktops and laptops running Linux, using mainly nVidia cards, one laptop uses an old SiS chipset from 2000 and a newish laptop with an ATi Radeon Mobility X700.

After install, the nVidia based machines have working 3D and dual-head support. The SiS chipset doesn't really have any 3D support, but will just about manage an OpenGL screensaver. The X700 based laptop? It displays a blank screen (the OSS radeon driver can't drive the chipset at any resolution and the monitor goes into stand-by mode), not a good start.

Calling up a text console allows me to manually install the ATi drivers, hand-editing the xorg.conf to then use said driver allows me to start the X graphics session - in 2D, not exactly user friendly... According to ATi the X700 is incapable of 3D acceleration!

On my main workstation I use a widescreen 20.1" TFT, the nVidia cards recognise it and SUSE supports it without having to load any additional software. My other workstation is running dual-head 17" TFT's through a nVidia FX5900XT, again, no problems with support.

I can understand Pete's frustration at ATi, but knowing that ATi support is abysmal and knowing he wanted to use Linux, why did he buy an ATi? Why not go straight for nVidia? He could still have made his point. It sounds like cutting off his nose to spite his face...

My Windows experience with ATi hasn't been a bed of roses over the years either, their drivers were always flaky when I had ATi cards (Rage and Rage128). Since then I've been mostly nVidia and their Windows drivers have always been rock solid for me.

So why did I end up with a X700 based laptop? I needed a 3D capable laptop in a hurry, I was going on a trip where I would need some good 3D acceleration under Windows on my laptop, so given the choice in my local highstreet between shared memory Intel or SiS chipsets, 1 nVidia Go5200 or a spanking new X700 PCIe chipset, there wasn't a lot of choice - I had 1 day to buy the machine and configure it before leaving. After I got back from the trip, I wanted to make it Linux dual-boot, only having experience with nVidia it was a bit of a shock, instead of it running in default 2D mode until I checked a box to download the 3D capable driver, I was left with a sleeping screen!

As to general Linux driver support...

Here are some comparisons from my recent experience (using the same A8V deluxe A64 machine):

Case 1: LG 20.1" widescreen display - Windows, go into Desktop Properties and adjust resolution to 1680x1080; Linux, informed that a new Monitor had been detected, did I want to start the video card and monitor settings program? Changed resolution to 1680x1080. Windows 1 - Linux 1

Case 2: Upgrade FX5900XT to FX6600GT - Windows, reverted to SVGA mode until I de-installed the existing nVidia drivers, loaded the nVidia drivers supplied with card; Linux, informed me that a new FX6600GT had been detected (machine had booted into 1680x1050 mode as before), and the device settings had been updated. Windows 0 - Linux 1

Case 3: Samsung ML-1520 printer - Windows, a new printer (correctly identified) had been found, please feed me! Linux, a new printer (correctly identified) had been found, printer configuration opened and the correct Samsung driver selected as a default (I didn't even need to load the Samsung provided Linux driver from the delivered CD). Windows 0 - Linux 1

Case 4: HP PSC2610 network attached printer - Windows, 45 minutes to install the supplied HP driver and utility set for the printer; Linux, point the printer configuration dialog at the network address of the printer, selelct an HP driver and print a test page, under 1 minute including user interaction...

OK, that is a little unfair on the PSC2610, the utilities for Windows includes a lot of junk I probably don't need, the plain driver on its own probably would have taken a couple of minutes to install... But again, I still would have needed the CD provided with the printer, whereas SUSE Linux had a plethora of HP drivers pre-installed. Windows 0 - Linux 0.5 (drivers available for Linux but not auto-detected)

Total Windows 1 - Linux 3.5

Linux driver support for most common devices - with the exception of products from companies like ATi - is pretty good. And don't forget Windows support for hardware is pretty non-existent, it is the manufacturers support for their own devices under Windows that makes them work, a lot of devices won't do anything, or can't be used to their full potential, under Windows until the supplied driver CD has been loaded...

My A64 workstation (Asus A8V Deluxe) was a doddle with SUSE 64-bit to install, S-ATA recognised, SB Audigy 2ZS recognised, FX5900XT recognised, Marvell Ethernet port on mobo recognised, dual DVD burners recognised... 1 reboot and it is patched, apps installed and online in around 1 hour.

Under Windows XP Pro, S-ATA? No hard disk attached to PC! I had to go back to the store where I purchased the components and borrow a floppy drive to load the S-ATA drivers into Windows Setup, once that was done, Windows installed onto the S-ATA drive (and floppy drive returned to shop, GREAT service). That left me with SVGA graphics, no networking, no sound and the DVD burners were recognised, but no DVD-RAM capability. A bundle of driver CD's and online updates, and several hours and dozens of reboots later and the PC was usable and I could start installing the apps...

And that was nearly 2 years ago, since then SUSE's, and Linux in generals, driver support has increased beyond recognition, whilst XP Pro hasn't changed its situation... Companies like Microsoft and ATi really need to open their eyes and see what the rest of the industry is doing.

I'm not saying Linux is the best solution for everybody, and some versions are easier to use than others. BUT sitting their with the old rhetoric of it being a niche market and unfriendly are not true any more. They need to get a clue quickly or they will be left behind...

macemoneta

For desktops:

1. Open case
2. Remove ATI video card
3. Install Nvidia card
4. Close case
5. Sell ATI video card on EBay

For laptops:

1. Sell laptop on EBay
2. Buy laptop with Nvidia


It's not like there isn't a choice. If you want to run Linux, and have great 3D, you have options. Linux use is growing, and measuring it is very hard (since it's free to download and free to copy). If ATI doesn't want your business, then go to their competitor.

When the Open Graphics project releases product, then there will be even more of a choice. Until then, there's no reason to do business with ATI, if they don't want to do business with you.

rinthos

Obviously it's not a huge obstacle, as Nvidia has been doing this for a long time.
Their linux driver works on pretty much all common Xservers, and with pretty much any distro. on distributions where it doesn't install, it's typically a few lines of a text file to modify that the end-user can do (doesn't require nvidia), and nvidia typically includes those modifications in their next release.

I know this:
Radeon 9000 , 9600, and 9500 desktop cards, and 9000 and 9600 mobility radeons, are what i initlaly used with Linux systems.
All 3 desktop cards have been removed.
1 of the systems (my personal desktop) is using a TI-4400 geforce 4, another is using a 440mx geforce 4, and the third is using Intel 810 integrated graphics.
Well actually until about a month ago, where we moved the 440mx to the intel system, and put a 6600gt into the workstation.


My notebooks, however, can't be modified so that is where I still use the ati linux drivers.

But back to my point:
We have used the following Linux distros:
Suse 8.2 -> 9.1 -> 9.3 -> 10.0
Redhat Enterprise 3
Fedora Core 4
(and FreeBSD 5.3 but that's not relevant).

With Ati, we've had various installation issues with Control Panel application not working, mtrr issues, system hardlocks, failure to suspend (well suspend is ok, just doesn't resume). Installation issues are very vague in that sometimes the Suse specific RPM's work, sometimes they don't. The ati-installer seems to work ok but then we have to clean up some of the SuSE fglrx files manually (not the case anymore with suse 10 though).

With Nvidia, never really had any problems (except with swsusp2, but swsusp works fine). Never had installation issues. Just download and run.

In terms of performance, FAR superior with Nvidia.
Also in terms of card support, had an issue initially with the radeon mobility 9600 but that was corrected rather quickly. With nvidia, never had a problem.


The purpose of this post isn't to say "go to Nvidia". Rather it's to say "Ati can't do that because.....". The above has indeed been done by Ati's competition, so for the argument to be "ati can't do it", or "it's nearly impossible to do", Nvidia has definately done it.

I personally prefer Ati hardware (per my initial recommendations at work for the radeon carsds). However, their offerings with limited support and slow development make it -impossible- for me to switch from their products to nvidias for our linux systems.

Long story short, the switching cost is very low, and the perceived value is much higher when switching to Nvidia.

Ati used to feed the opensource drivers, but lately, they've tried to pump up their proprietary binary ones. The downside is, they've left their linux customers hanging.
With slowing (and restricted/limited) development on Opensource drivers for new cards, and very slow development on their binary drivers (12 releases a year is meaningless if they only address 1 small issue/bug per release). The time spent having to package and test the drivers for each month could instead be spent on drvier development.
To me this 12-releases a year thing is a bad idea (unless they have the ample resources for it, whcih Obviously they do not).
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Malus

FreeBSD 6.0 is running great for me. To install the Nvidia driver (while su'd as root), I simply:
And the driver is installed. To configure X to use it, just:
X will use the Nvidia driver at this point and it will always be loaded upon boot (not that I ever have to reboot). I didn't have to edit any files, or reboot the machine, or anything else complicated. I just had to type six simple lines. If you really think that is complicated, then I don't think *nix is for you.

Personally, I think that if you plan on using anything other than Windows, you shouldn't waste your time with ATI. Bitching and moaning won't fix their shoddy support; show your support for working 3d solutions by buying your card from a different manufacturer.

By the way, World of Warcraft runs pretty nice under FreeBSD with Wine.

__________________
quad (FreeBSD/amd64 8-CURRENT): Intel Q6600 - Asus P5E-VM HDMI - 2x2 GB Kingston PC6400 DDR2 Ram - Seagate 320GB 7200RPM HD - 2xSeagate 1TB 7200RPM HD in RAID 1 via ZFS - Lite-On 20x DVD Multi Recorder - Coolermaster Centurion 5

router (FreeBSD/amd64 8-CURRENT): Intel E4500 - Intel D945GCNL - 2 GB PC6400 Mushkin Ram - Lite-On 48x24x48x16 - Seagate 320GB 7200RPM HD - Silverstone SST-SG02-F

wanderer (FreeBSD/i386 7-CURRENT): Lenovo Thinkpad T61p

mini (OS X 10.5): Intel Core 2 Duo @ 1.8Ghz, 4 GB Mushkin PC5400 Ram - Headroom MicroDAC

Portable sound: Rockboxed iPod Video -> Westone UM2's
Not-So-Portable Sound: Headroon MicroDAC -> Singlepower PPX3-SLAM -> Grado RS-1's or Beyerdynamic DT-880's
Very-Not-Portable-Sound: Squeezebox v3 -> Denon AVR-1507 -> B&W 683's & Sunfire HRS-10

ronnn

Right there are the two main issues I have with linux. Pain in the butt install with the knowledge that after installing wine and whatever - your games may run pretty nice. I keep hoping the install will be dummied down and suppose I can live without games while using linux anyhows.

big_D

Have you tried a distro like SUSE lately? Put the DVD in, click next a few times, auto-detects your hardware and installs default drivers better than Windows does. If you have a nVidia card, it'll even install the nVidia binary drivers for you during the first update, you just have to check 1 box in the updates dialog...

I played Anarchy Online under Cedega's extensions for Wine on Linux for a while, think it was just "wine /media/cd/setup.exe" or something to kick it off...