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Originally Posted by Necrosis
I knew you'd bring up the infamous 5800 incident since this is the only "true" evidence of optimization on Nvidia's part. You keep saying "Optimizations" but don't list them? If they're so well known why isn't there a list of them some where? If ATI has proof of this, why don't they shout it to the masses? It would certainly make some great PR.
I just simply forgot about this, it was six months ago. Though I'm confused why you would recommend such an optimizing inferior product? |
You not serous? Are you? OMG!!!! You’re serious… the only true
evidence? well hopfully you wake up soon and stop deaming Or
getting you daily programing form the nvidia
PR dept.
No wonder you so quick to run to the fan boy smear defense. You don’t
know this? So much for reading everything huh… I don’t know weather
to feel sorry or to laugh. Well let me wake you up a little but I’ve not
going to write a 300 page novel for you. If youreally want to know seek
out the knowledge you self. Before you ask No, I’m not searching for links
for you. (Though much of it can be found in previous posts by me)
On a hardware level there be mention of optimizations on their cards
Though can’t remember specifics. I can how ever remember the hardware
in their Nf4 chipsets being optuized to he point where NV cards gets a
small boost, ATI cards lose a small amount like %1 or less. There’s some
article the prove it but I have and book mark enough stuff already.
HL2:
(driver side)
Game performance increased by about 30% in one single driver update.
After optimizations for the game where obviously added.
Far Cry:
(developer side / driver side, shows developer working for giving NV FPS)
Rename farcry.exe to you lose a notable amount of performance the big ordeal
they renamed it “fart cry” if want to try to look it up. Also look up the custom
NVIDIA path. Also look up forcing a ATI device ID resulted in better IQ, removal
of graphical glitches and a loss of performance. The pixel shader 3.0 path is so
little Ps 3.0 it was forced and runs runs on ATI hardware and it was much faster
then on NVDIA hard where I might add. I believe I have the benchmarks here
somewhere … There is also wa a DH pice about somein AA/AF in farcry if
memory serves me..
Doom III:
(developer side, driver side unkown)
Look at how the game ran very much so faster on ATI cards before NVIDIA bought
In as was found with the beta demos showed of a E3 (I have them). Look up custom
path for NVIDIA, 16 or 24 bits used on some textures on NVIDIA cards when 32 bit
are specified source, the developers mothns before release. Was what was announced
by the developer then just 1 week before release they said there would be no such thing
done. Shows their working to ensure the game performance better on NVIDIA hardware.
Instead they did their own way of doing AA and only worked with NVIDIA on it. Same
goes with working with NV on their new for that game shadows.
UT2004: (developer side / driver side, shows developer control)
Demo released, with out benchmark reviews told NOT to benchmark
the game on NVIDIA hardware. People figured out how to benchmark it
and found severely poor NVIDIA performance. NVIDIA responded it was
a bug and that they would release a new driver the fixed the issue before the
games release.
3DMark2003: NVIDIA has been caught several times cheating in this
benchmark Via driver optimizations even some PS 2.0 ones are even
allowed by futuremark. Things like bullets smoke not “showing up”.
One snippet for you from past news from 3dmark03 inncodent
Quote:
“NVIDIA's driver cheating for 3Dmark2003 only came to light in a
developer version of the benchmark where you can pause and mouse-look
around the rendered landscape. Doing this revealed that (in the most obvious
benchmark abuse from NVIDIA), that a full sky-box had not been rendered.
This means that the far-off box containing the sky textures was not fully
rendered where the 'camera' could not see it, saving the graphics card from
processing erroneous visual data that would be immediately discarded after
processing and therefore freeing up more of the graphics card's resources.
While the final graphical output appeared identical to the user, it resulted in a
falsely higher 3Dmark2003 score.” “NVIDIA's drivers would only activate the
sky-box clipping mode when they detected that a pre-scripted benchmarking
run of 3Dmark2003 was being performed. While optimizations like the sky-box
clipping can, and are, made in a game-by-game basis, doing so just for a benchmark
is cheating, no matter how many times you plead that it isn't” – article snippets
'Some of the visual anomalies turned out to be bugs; others were aggressive optimizations. We make no secret of the fact that we were doing optimizations for 3Dmark2003. We have always maintained we would, but we feel it is an unfortunate waste of time as it doesn't benefit games. We would certainly prefer to spend all of our energy optimizing games people play, as it ultimately benefits the users.”-NVIDIA
“NVIDIA's head of Windows Software (read: drivers) also admitted to me that 'People are getting so good at sniffing out our optimizations that we've had to obfuscate them in the system registry with alphanumeric keys'. – article snippets
Furthermore, when I pointed out to Triantos that a few of the slides in the presentation seemed to indicate that optimisations were made first for benchmarks, then checked to see if they benefited games, instead of being made in general for games and benchmarks, he responded: 'No, not at all. We give what the customer wants. If they want UT2003 (Unreal Tournament 2003) to go faster then we'll optimise for it. If the customer wants 3Dmark2003 we'll optimise for that.”– Article snippets
From 2003: http://www.pcauthority.com.au/news.aspx?CIaNID=12445
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Heck this is back with 44XX drivers, a forum post:
Quote:
In the other thread you mentioned about NVIDIA "explicitly" stating Quality = Trilinear (or "Application without Debug"). I've not gone through the recording yet (there was, afterall, about 4 hours worth!), however here is a snip from the reviewers guide. The reviewers guide itself doesn't expliciatly state that Quality is Trilinear, but it does display the following:
http://www.beyond3d.com/previews/nvi...5/iq/guide.jpg
As you can see the guide advocates the use of SamX's app, downloaded from here no less, to display the quality of tha AF filtering. In that shot they have the full AF quality, with full Trilinear enabled.
Following the guide a number of reviewers (Lars at Toms) diligently downloaded the app and showed all the quality options available - clearly demonstrating full Trilinear in all modes when AF was enabled. Here, for example is the OpenGL app running in Quality with the 44.03:
http://www.beyond3d.com/previews/nvidia/nv35/iq/ogl.jpg
Now, for interest, there is also a D3D version, this is the output of the D3D version:
http://www.beyond3d.com/previews/nvidia/nv35/iq/d3d.jpg
As we'd expect, given their guide: full Trilinear. Curiously look what happens when the driver control panels are kept the same but the exe of the d3d version is renamed to "ut2003.exe":
http://www.beyond3d.com/previews/nvi.../iq/ut2003.jpg
(I kid you not, please try this yourselves) Not actually that much of a surprise, since when knew they were dropping down the filtering levels. However, clearly they are advocating the use of this application to demonstrate the filtering quality and then doing something else when the "ut2003.exe" was detected.
Interestingly, lets take a look at what it does to the Aniso quality. First is just the standard app name with Quality 8X AF. I can’t use the full colors because curiously the app flicks back to 1X AF:
http://www.beyond3d.com/previews/nvi...5/iq/d3d8x.jpg
This is the same settings at name "ut2003.exe":
http://www.beyond3d.com/previews/nvi...q/ut20038x.jpg
Though its difficult to see it appears that there is still the Bi/Trilinear mix there, however they haven't altered the filter kernel shape which is quite interesting.
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you go bacwards and forwards there is cheating/optuizeing
all over the place from 5800FX to 7800Gtx
NVIDIA cough over optimizing
http://theinquirer.net/?article=25807
What you think massive FPS gains in “some” games via drivers is
because their special? Because few game see a massive boost and the
rest don’t really change. You have to be blind not to see why that would
be so.
I don’t believe I’ll have to spend a year dredging all these crap.
You get my point and you really can’t arguer that their optimizing for
games, Benchmarks and so forth… this is a “given” or “fact” weather
you recognize it or not…
My guess why you never seen these and many other come up?
You either where not looking or didn’t care. I can guarantee with
out a shred of doubt I speed more time then you do and have spent
more time on the internet and reading such and many other things.
But these things where so well publicized I have no idea on gods
green earth how you could have not at lest herd about them.
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Originally Posted by Necrosis
Nice list here but you personally messed around with any of Nvidia's latest series?
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Like 7800’s? no sadly people around here don’t go for the big cards
least that I’ve dealt with, People with budgets. Latest would be 6600’s.
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Originally Posted by Necrosis
Well I'm not quite sure they did that. It would of been nice if they released the X800XL instead of the nasty X800Pro (no offense anyone). Being some one that went from a X800XTPE - 6800 Ultra - 6800GT - X800XL. I was, and still am immensely impressed with the card. I say get the XT 256 Meg down to $400.00, and they should sweep. I've never once said Nvidia has better drivers, or that they're a better company. Even though they are the "Evil Empire", and I have a personal liking for ATI they are on the ball though. Instead of this being a 40 to nothing lead for ATI. It's ATI is up by a few points but Nvidia can easily re-take the lead.
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Well the XL’s came months later, so you saying they shouldn’t or released the pro?
The one that’s a lot of people bought and modded to fully functional XT’s. The old
Series prices will obviously drop as their replaced.
Just a drive by FYI: The X1800XL is already below MSRP $430 @ newegg.
Most cards drop about $100 under MSRP in a matter of a couple months
As long as their available and there is competition for sales.
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Originally Posted by MindlessOath
this is just one of many... but one of the only huly publicised incidents. meaning you dont know about the rest and its pointless to say anything because nvidia already has said "we are not going to remove them" because if they did they would loose to the competition. so the news channels really dont care anymore.
the source of my comment is unknown but i know its out there, im not going to bother looking for it... if you care so much do your own homework.
however nvidia does cheat to this very day in many differnt ways. and like neon suggests ati does try to keep it more fair playing ground, ie make them options and also they may do a cheat but its only to fix a problem a game manufacture wont fix in there own code cause of lazyness or not wanting to spend money or whatever the issue.
just because its not in the news doesnt mean its not true, and just so you know its true.
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You left you self open NVIDIA here won’t remove the optimizations
nor do they really discuss them as somewhere people do still frown
on cheating. They haven’t corrupted us all yet. They’ve never removed
Optimizations only added more and refined them.
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Originally Posted by Necrosis
However, still wouldn't this really be the ace of ATI's sleeve if it were so true? Loose? Ha, please spoken like a true FanATIc!! I can't know if some thing is true unless I see the evidence. Trust me I'm not going to believe two guys who swooo all over ATI. It's just propaganda, if it were so true & bad then why is ATI now doing it as well? Oh but their not it’s “fixes”. LOL, wow if Nvidia does any thing to their drivers it’s cheating. Simply amazing guys…simply amazing. I never said Nvidia never did any thing under-handed to their drivers. What I’m saying is it’s not as rampant as you guys like to make out.
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There is that word yet again… what is this like the 3rd time??
So you can’t know what’s right in fount of you unless some one holds
your hand and shows you.
Why is ATI doing it? Well because NVIDIA has been doing it for years. Because the attitude has changed (due completely to NVIDIA) from it being absolutely WRONG
To widely acceptable and EVEN ASKED FOR!!!!! Just one of the many ways NVIDIA been corrupting things. ATI added AI to help offset the imbalances but at the very least allows them to be disabled. Also they haven’t went app specific.
Also not all cheats are in their drivers their in many GAMES as well.
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Originally Posted by Necrosis
Honestly if you don't know about the rest then how can you say there is more? I love it when you guys pull this stuff out of your ass. Wow, just like the whole conspiracy theory that the USA didn't land on the moon. If the Russians would have really had proof of that, they'd be all over like flies on shit. So would ATI!
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Well let us know when you pull your head out of yours. You’re confusing
what is KOWN to be a fact with conspiracy. Unfortunately you arguing with
some one who does know and has a excelent grasp of what hes talking about...
The END
