X1000 series: The aftermath

The_Neon_Cowboy

It’s the same reason ATI and NV hasn’t released 48 pipe cards yet.
You forget why is a company there #1 ??? = MONEY, they don’t make
money making one card every two years, they make it making tons of cards
and different prices and steppinging from generation to generation. Not to
mention they enormous price they would have to charge would be insane.
They would have to make forced upgrades two or some other absurd things.

Same reason NVIDIA isn’t shipping g72 (if they had it ready) it would be
stupid and they would be expected to come up with yet another improvement
in very early 2006. Which mean a sloppy few months of design to out the
door a couple months that would be cutting it close. Not to mention divers
Development, firmware and so forth would be “rushed” and buggy as hell.
Everything has a schedule, you can bet R6XX/ G80 is already been an / is on
the drawing board / early prototypes what ever.

Not to mention WHO WOULD BUY R520 if R580 was shipped now???
So there would be also no point in the current line up. So they should throw
Hundreds of millions in the trash, and give their competitor the upper hand for
6 months to make a few people like you happy? LOL NO!! Weather you
personally like R520 or not they will sell a lot of them between
now and then. A lot of people will turn and buy R580 when it’s released….
THE TOP END ISN”T THE KEY END OF THE MARKET anyways. Most
of the money is made with OEMS and the mainstream and value sectors.

Also that would play in NVIDIA hands as ATI would be complexly revealed
Why NV is free to work nothing exactly what the other marker is offering. It
doesn’t work that way its like “top secret” type work. For ATI to know what
NV is going to do or vice versa mean the other company is going to be blindsided
By a vastly superior product and have no defense.

I just going on what was said in the G72 was coming release basically
G70 @ 90NM=G72 they didn’t’ go any further so it hard to tell. Sounded
Like just a process change though the way I read it. Though I suspect they’d
at lest go with higher clocks.

What you don’t get, so basically NVIDIA has been “delayed” but you have
never herd a single word about it have you? No one whine in long articals?- Nope
that’s my point other wise they would of done 90NM as they stated / promised
but never delivered (yet). This was pre shipping a single 7800 , they said 110NM
and 90NM. So maybe and very likely NVIDIA has some 90NM issues of their own.
But does a butter job of keeping it under warps. Other wise it stupid to make part in
both 110NM and 90NM. The thing is 90NM never showed up (yet). Also it goes
if they could of they would of so they obviously couldn’t. I’d also ask where is the
rest of NV’s new line up? Drum roll, Magic land?

MindlessOath

im still waiting... lets just say that. i just bought an X800XT PE and for a very very good price ($230 referbished and acts like its brand new).

the r520 just doesnt do it for me sofar, to add features is very good i like that idea but none of those features i could really need yet, not for along time to come since i have basically a top of the line card.

of course its faster at higher res's but what do i need to spend 500+ dollers for annother top of the line card - even if it was spread out in time more i would probably have the same feelings. i had previous a good deal a cheap 9500 that was a 9700 after modding it and i loved it... it took me many years to buy this new card.

i wont be buying an ati card untill r580 at least if not later. i think 24 pipes is greater than 16 and i think its great that the new card can perform at same as nvidia counterpart with more features and less pipes, but its just not going to do it for me right now.

plus with all the PR crap i have seen ATI doing latelly... they have to do it i understand i truly do but i dont like it just like i dont like nvidia doing it, thats the main reason why i HATE nvidia! (one of many). now i see ati doing it. arg... just look at www.hardocp.com now i dont really goto hardocp as much as i used to but i still consider it a great news source and great reviews (even tho they have less reviews as they once did).

anyways im alittle pissed but not really, i guess im a waiter. i know that ati is a good card it truly is better than nvidia's solution for many reasons, its just other issues (mabe the way things are being presented or missenterupeted (mainly due to the way they are communicating these things - dunno)).

anyways i like the ati card, it can perform just as the competition and overclock even better for way better performance, they offer full 32 precision great ram for once!!!!!!!!! but i hope people see what im saying. im pro ati for many reasons but the guy in the suit ruins it sometimes for the good folks too. fuck corperate decissions.

EDIT: i also found great displease by news sites when they found a release date and were pissy about it... why? because ati said they would release one month in quantities when they finalize a date, and then the news sites were getting grouchy and didnt remember that. whatever tho.

Necrosis

I'm very much aware how the electronics industry works since I worked two years at a board house. I've been through the whole entire process from design to implementation of said design, to further revisions down the line. A company exits to produce a product consumers what. ATI has a lack luster launch with their latest series. Don't believe me, just take a look at the poll on the front page. I think that says it all right there.

So how long did it take for ATI to go from the R350 to the R360. If it's not a major redesign, and uses the same PCB then there isn't much to change is there? Yeah, maybe the PSU circuit on the card and a firmware flash. Heck, I imagine the drivers would be the biggest change but it appears Nvidia has already added supports for their future cores already.

If the R580 was shipped now, it would eliminate the 1300 & 1600 which don't perform any better than what is currently on the market. Thus the R520's would be pushed down further in to the budget area, which would mean ATI would dominate the whole entire spectrum. Sales would go through the roof, and give them plenty of time to develop some thing even better to match Nvidia.

Yes, I do remember how it was said on many previews about 90nm; questioned on a number of reviews after it was released where it was. However, the point is they released a product which was, and still at the time myself writing this superior to any thing currently on the market. If you released a product on time, and when you say you are people tend to forget about core sizes. It's the same reason for the R520 which is better than anything ATI has out, and best's the G70 in about 70% of benchmarks by a decent marginal amount. I never said Nvidia didn't have any 90nm issues since it's very apparent they do. However, if you go look around at the reviews thus far the 1300's & 1600's line up doesn't matter. It's not any better than the top end x800 series of cards thus the reason why people are waiting for the R580! Why release a new product that performs no better than currently what you in the market place? Never mind the fact Nvidia has been known to release their budget items later on. BTW, I see there is no mobile part from ATI, I guess it's also in Magic Land.

Dazog

I can See ATi getting a bigger lead over Nvidia, Remeber Nvidia has had 6 months to work out the bugs in there software, while ATi is just getting started!

I mean ATi's drivers are great and I just hope The Dual Core upgrades a few sites mentioned is coming sooner than later.

No pressure on Terry ofcourse ;P

SFOSOK

If your looking at it that way then this can also be said.

Nvidia's driver for the 7800 will be quiet a bit ahead of the drivers for the x1800 for quiet a while. I would think of it as Nvidia has had 6 months already and they are +6 months ahead of ATI's Catalyst team until all revisions are done. Saying that, Nvidia should finish with optimizing the 7800 around 6 months ahead of ATI.

Just because Nv has had 6 months done already doesn't mean they are anywhere near close to fully optimizing the 7800 series cards.

ronnn

Now we are getting to one of the biggest potential downside of all this. Lets just hope Nvidia is fininished with optomizing - as that can lead down roads no one wants to go. Anyways at this time looks like if they can release it, Ati has the fastest - most versatile single card - guess dual gpu is the next biggie )at least for those who actually want 2 cards cooking away. I hope Ati makes their solution a little quieter, etc.

Lakevren

Nvidia already has those dual GPU on a single card developed, at least for 6800s. Perhaps for testing? Maybe. But we will see if they actually implement it into the market.

SFOSOK

I believe there was a dual GPU in the 6600 series for what ever reason. My motherboard has a special option for it in the BIOS.

The_Neon_Cowboy

Yea Kyle at hardocp got his head up his rump & panties in a bunch.
Go a read a few of his forum posts and do some fact changing on his
recent articles. Guy is blinded by some axe he has to grind against ati.
Seriously I had though it a respected place until I saw the forums.

Actually to bring up another point you remind me of many people won’t
run an upgrade anyways. Or will upgrade and won’t be buying any of the
new G70 or R520 series cards. There is yet to be any true need upgrade the
current hardware can reasonably handle anything that thrown at them..

Yes there are dual 6800 and dual 6600 cards that where made I believe by
gigabyte and maybe some others. Asus has a dual 7800 coming. But the ones
by gigabyte I’ve seem aren’t sold separately you have to by them bundled with amotherboards.

NVIDIA is never finished long as there are new games, applications and
benchmarks to optimize in and for. The lead the way in such things unfortunately
it a was path better not taken. But now we are stuck with it and ATI will have to
continue down the same path to an extent for example AI is a step in that direction.

I miss the days that this was frowned upon most severely. When we could be
sure the FPS displayed was due to the power of the hardware not driver “tricks”.
Though at lest NV moved far enough ahead that no longer is massive IQ and
effects striped from games as it did when their back was against the wall with the
5800’s. Not to mention they pay for a lot of help, optimizations, custom paths etc
from the developers end as well. We’ve turned from synthetics the only even
remotely fair way of caparison. Because there is a lot some level of policing the
drivers. We are ringing in a age when you can no longer compare almost different
brandsIn any fair ways. So you can really only compare NV card vs. NV card, ATI
card VS ATI card and know that you are reasonably accurate.

I wouldn’t be so sure as they have written support from their sample and test a
verylong time ago. You can be sure as drivers have been improved through a level
of testing and revisions done over the past year. There is always room for fixes
and improvements that can’t possibly test everything in house either.

[quote=Necrosis] I'm very much aware how the electronics industry works since I worked two years at a board house. I've been through the whole entire process from design to implementation of said design, to further revisions down the line. A company exits to produce a product consumers what. ATI has a lack luster launch with their latest series. Don't believe me, just take a look at the poll on the front page. I think that says it all right there.

So how long did it take for ATI to go from the R350 to the R360. If it's not a major redesign, and uses the same PCB then there isn't much to change is there? Yeah, maybe the PSU circuit on the card and a firmware flash. Heck, I imagine the drivers would be the biggest change but it appears Nvidia has already added supports for their future cores already. [quote=Necrosis]

R350 to R360 was a very minor step forward. From 9800 pro to 9800XT other then
the thermal sensor and (driver added) overdrive. 32Mhz core clock and 50Mhz
memory (at higher latency/canceled out most of the added memory mhz). moved us from DDR to DDR2 and some minor firmware differences. Also the release of 256MB
cards.People could easily over clock their 9800 that much and call it a day I still don’t see the point of the 9800XT other them very minor improvements. A lot of people didn’t run out and buy one they just molded their 9800 pro to get that few %.

ATI lost lot of ground as info leaked allowed NV’s to make improvements in their drivers and changed their plans (as they where/are lacking in compression). An example would be SLI AA as a n answer to Crossfire’s AA modes. You have to aggress if R520
come out on time NV would be in a world of hurt instead of ATI.


Why don’t you see it? The point is to make money++! The new cards have the same core frtures from top to bottom 90NM, ps.30 support etc. So there is
a market for them. Epically from the view of a marketing department. That
and people finlly upgradeing fromthier 7200/geforce2 to 9800/59XX series.
People with 66XX or X800 series or later will still be in a lesser rush to upgrade.
untill there is a real need for better cards.

The 8500, was replaced by the 9100, was replaces by the 9200, was replaced
by the 9250, was replaced by the 9550… It’s all the same level of performance card. It does nagate the need for them. Not everyone uses a top end card either.
That’s the “few” percentile vs the masses who are not. There e will be many more
1300 and 1600 card soldthen X1800 or 7800 series. The market is basically the
mid to low range is a good 75-90% of the consumer market where they are made
or broken. NTI is lost sale doe to not having PS3.0 support how ever it still
pointless even at this time the argument for right now is still weak. The argument
of future use is always been strong. Some people that would have bought NV
cards will be buying the ATI cards.

Money, Money, Money, marketing, Money, market share, Money, Money, Sales
that will go to ATI card instead of their competitor, to make more Money. You
have to look from more then the consumer side of the fence and you see it all
makes since. I have some lesser system I for one will be buying X1300/1600 at
lest one or two for personal use and what ever my systems build call for. Not
everyone’s willing to pay the prices the better or faster cards require. But still
want bang for their buck. Also mention of a mobile part but did come up in their
earnings call. NV just rolled theirs out didn’t they, how many months after
release? You can be sure several coming from ATI though I have no word or
personal knowable of them at this time.

SFOSOK

Jesus, its like reading an Essay


Edit: Thats what we get for allowing you to catch some Zzz's when pile up information to disect.


If the X800 outperforms (dunno yet) the 1600 series and less I don't think anyone will buy them at all (unless they like to throw their money away).

Necrosis

Every time Nvidia is brought up you always have to bring up the old optimization issue. Each company has done this, and the two only true specific games that really have this is Doom 3 & HL2. So if by going off your logic this is no point in comparing cards from both companies? I would hope ATI would have any performance boosts squared away by now since their R520 series has been released so late.

I hopefully won't put my foot in my mouth by saying this. I don't believe the next versions of the latest chips from both companies will be that much of an upgrade. If any thing it will match them up even better, and ATI's chip probably will run even cooler. ATI isn't exactly in a world of hurt, just they're not setting themselves up for success. Honestly if R520 came out when it was supposed to (Spring/Summer 05) Nvidia would be the ones in a world of hurt right now.

You made my very point for me here. The number of people who will upgrade from the older budget cards will be extremely few. The reason behind this is games that have been released in the mean time. One game in particular is BF2. How many people have you seen on this site, and others asking questions about the 6600GT? If the current series of Nvidia budgets are cheaper, and work just as well why they go for the 1300 or 1600 series? Honestly if ATI really gave it some major thought they should of released these budget series cards months ago. It still wouldn't of told Nvidia squat about their top tier product, and really made them nervous. Of course knowing this could be the very reason why not, since ATI would be fearful of what Nvidia could release.

More like lie, dupe, steal, cheat the customer in to thinking if they buy a card with a bigger model number it'll be better. People are finding out they might as well stick with what they have unless they're fanatics. Do you know what these earnings calls are for? They're for their investors, and a response to their investors what/how they "hope" to do answer their competitor's products. Honestly for most companies the investors come before the consumer. It took Nvidia six months to get a mobile part out. So what is your point? I would think ATI has had plenty of time to come up with some thing.

I switch back fourth from ATI, and Nvidia all the time. I've owned every single generation /w the FX series being the exception. I'm not blinded by brand loyalty, and don't find any other company /w more principles than the other. I prefer ATI drivers, and love their customer service. Yet at the same time I have a transferable lifetime warranty on my card. I'm still looking forward to the R580 because I still believe it will be what ATI promised to deliver to us.

ReDGuiTaR

Upgrading is a cycle, of course peoples that bought x800 or 6800 series aren't in a rush to upgrade and most of them wont ... current generation games just dont need that much to be playable at good resolution . So those peoples will wait for next gen parts like the R580 or G72 and maybe even more but, people that are on 9800 or 5900 and less might have to upgrade if they want to get all the juice to play the newest game at good resolution . So there's room for 7800 and x1000 series for both NVidia and ATI and there will be room for the next gen part too .

Ok, the x1600 might not be a beast but it could be interesting in few months when price will fall and x800 should be out of market by then ...

Still, i'll wait for next gen part to show before to do the move into PCI-E land .

SFOSOK

went from a 5900XT to a 7800GTX, wouldn't have done it differently.

MindlessOath

the jump in performance from a 9700/9800 to an x800 was a big jump compaired to the jump from x850 to x1800.

its not worth it to me in that fact of upgrading too.

im stuck with a x800 right now and my CPU is the only thing holding me back - that and i have the AGP x800 - damn it ati couldnt you offer a PEG for those referbished cards
ohh well now im going to have a tough time finding a motherboard. nforce3 or ULI (amd64 of coures).

The_Neon_Cowboy

Bingo all but a good 1 to 2% of the top 10% is in no immediate
rush of when they upgrade. Or will be buying something less
then a 7800 or X1800 series. The wise ones will wait anyways.
Peopled be surprised how many are just waiting for the
X800’s and 6800’s to drop in price.

A 9600XT or 5700 is all that’s really needed if you game at
1024X768 with no AA/AF. Most people game at 1024x768
to 1280x1024 with no to little AA/AF. Even with the better
cards.

Also people need to realize this isn’t the entire lineup, ATI
showed you a few cards from their hand but the rest and still
upside down on the table. Probably will show up around
R580 time.

This actually helps offset their being slower to market as the NV
fans are still left waiting for lesser 7X00 series cards. The value
you and main steam is where all the volume and major money
is made.

No one in the world has optimized any where near the level NVIDIA
has and at every possible level. From drivers, to their chipsets, to their
cards hardware, to the games them self’s at the developers end.

Just last year people where booing when XGI was found doing a little
cheating. But yet completely overlook what NVIDIA’s been doing for
years.

You can compare all you want but you will NEVER know what the
hardware is and what’s due to tricks and optimizations. Try as we will
you will never be able to compare different brands and be 100% sure
of your results if this keeps up.

Using games with absolutely no checks and balances funded by any
given company Should be look at just as if you would as a benchmark
released by ATI for NVIDIA cards or from NVIDIA for ATI cards.
Who results tend make their company look bad and their look better.
Doing thing like running some textures as 16 bit instead of 32 etc just little
tricks that you can’t see the difference but make the game less intense on
their hardware giving them large unfair advantages. We do the best that we
can to compare but I wouldn’t call it anything like a fair comparison.

Defeats the purpose of benchmarking when a company has massive
advantage given to it by the programs of the benchmark (game)
before its even ran.

It be like me saying like saying lets race I start at the top of the hill and
run down (easy). You start at the bottom and run up (harder). Would that be
a fair race? No then how would it be a fair benchmark for it to be less of a load
on one brand and more on another. Due to the games programming.

Games should be games not marketing tools for any game maker.
They the game makers should care show it runs and that it runs with out
problems on all brands not just who’s willing to stuff the most money
under their pillow. This is all getting absurd …

If ATI adds just 8 more pipes that would likely mean that G72 would
have to be 32 or be outpaced. If they added 16 that would mean G72
would have to be 48. So far as I see it unless NV’s making some major
changes with G72. ATI will probably have them beat next refresh. I would
figure at lest 5-10% with the next refresh. But I think both companies
are going to go for the gold as there two refreshes now as there still is no
absolute victor. But the most of the kudos would be ATI for their design changes.
Especially with NV saying all ATI did was throw clock speed at the problem.
When what did NV do other slap on 8 more pipes and call it a day? not that much….

Actually their likely to upgrade to a newer / little better budget card. People that
own the current higher end has no rush to upgrade. Mid range users are in the
same boat. The top cards 7800/X1800 will see the least volume sold.

Um the X1300, X1600, X1800 all have the EXACT same features just
different hardware under the hood. So it would of complexly reviled what
R520 had coming. Also the fact there is not limited to 1600X1200X60 in
crossfire. Also the support PS 3.0 etc etc… So there are more the just
performance differences to look at here.

You do realize that if ATI and NVIDIA stopped selling to customers and
just OEMs they wouldn’t miss a heartbeat. It’s where the majority of their
money is made. The GTO’s the X1300 and X1600 will be poplar with the
OEMs regardless of what’s better or worse. Alot of people have been just
waiting for the X800 prices to fall a tad more.

You mean stick with what they have unless their fanatic or nvidiot?
Or that they might want PS 3.0 and the many other features the
new cards add. Maybe they would like to use crossfire at higher
then 1600X1200@60Htz …There are very good reasons. But I’m
growing tired of mass typing. I don't belive the X1300 and X1600
will be the end of it. I suspect the holes will be filled in the comeing
months.

same reasron a Gf4 user jumpon on at 5200, o a 5200 user jumps
on 6200. Or a 8500 users to, 9100 , 9100 to 9200, The same kind
of user will jump to a 1300/1600... from what they have now. ase
asumeing thier not downgradeing. OEMs love the "numbers" though
if it got a cool name it'll help them sell more boxes.

If you don’t see the company principles differences then it’s as simple
You’re obviously not looking hard enough. I look @ far more then just the
hardware or benchmarks but the company as a whole. I don’t agrees with the
way NVIDIA has been doing the last few years. I believe as a whole we are
worse off for it. Their still lacking on the PR front despite their opening their
own forums was a improvement. The need to get out and mingle with the
masses on the magor forums. Stuff like that. I’d love to see a NV rep here for
example.

I buy both ATI and NVIDIA though since I beta test and because I prefer
ATI for my reasons (not listing them, saves me and you pages of typing )
I go with their cards for my personal systems. I’ve yet to see and enticing
enough deal to get me to bite. But I do consider them anduse them for other
peoples systems. Their likely to see more business from me after the release
their new IGP.

bug77