g000fy

hi all:

i am building a computer for my dad that will be used for audio recording (vocals and maybe guitar) and track mixing.

the system:
winxp 32bit fully updated.
abit nf7-s v2.0 motherboard
256MB ram (i know its not much but its all i have right now)
xp 2600+ (single core) overclocked to xp3200+ (prime 95 stable)
tnt 2 16mb vcard
audigy 2 zs platinum pro that i wil be getting very soon.

ok what drivers am i supposed to use.....the creatives or kx or daniel_k

im not worried about features.....what i am worried about is LOW LATENCY....ASIO support.
i know asio4all will only do 2 channels in and serveral channels out.
i will need to have ALL the inputs show up so asio4all should not be used which shouldnt be a problem because i believe this sound card supports asio 2.0

the audio console and an EQ and drivers are the most important things to me....i could prob live without the EQ and just control that with the home reciever if i need to.

the sound card line-out will go into the line-input on the reciever...wont be using spdif as the home reciever dont have one.

ok so let me say about my dad....he is like Mccain and never uses computers.
so i need the system to be stable* and easy for him to use....at least after i get it setup for him.

mostly he will be using ableton live 7 for recording vocals and mixing tracks....like i say the big thing here is LOW LATENCY and ALL the inputs on the audigy 2 zs platinum pro avail.

so he can use 2 mics for voice and a couple mics for guitar (all at same time)

appreciate any help anyone has to offer.

one more thing i forgot to mention.
he does like to listen to his music in headphones and isnt CMSS good for that?
if it is i guess it would be nice to have that avail to him

peate

I'd say you need a mixer/pre-amp for the mics, so you can use the inputs on the Live drive, I would also think about getting more ram as 256 is really not much and may make Ableton really slow. Your video card is also a little suspect. Without a mixer/pre-amp, you will get a lot of noise from the mic and line inputs. That's all I can think of for now.

As far a what drivers, I think the awnser is pretty obvious, kX all the way.

g000fy

yea that actual system is pretty weak...
that is why i ordered the audigy 2 zs plat pro.
i was using the onboard audio (which wasnt bad...about 10ms latency) with the SoundStorm APU

but i figured that was the weakest link so that item i worked on first.
from what i read about the audigy 2 zs it has a few different inputs.
a few line in jacks
one is mic in / line in which from what i also read i have to select what i want it to be in the audio control panel??
idk

anyhow there is a difference i think.
the regular line-in jacks are High Impedance and the Mic in im hoping is Low Impedance.

shouldnt i be able to just plug a good mic in like a SHURE SM-57 or SM-58?
i know the i/O console dont have XLR but the 1/4" mic in should work shouldnt it?

i mean why would i need a pre-amp? i bought this hoping i could adjust the settings in ableton or even the creative software so i didnt have to buy a pre-amp.

Maddogg6

On my platinum drive - the Mic pre amp is kinda weak with the dynamic mic I have (Sure Beta 2 I think it is)
For an searious recording of vocals, you need a large Diaphram condensor - which needs Phantom power - which *most* mixers have.

For a Dynamic Mic (or an electric guitar)... You can add extra gain in kX DSP with a VolHQ (edit: Its GainHQ plugin /edit) plugin in between Prolog and XRouting and EPILOG... but you will likely amplify the noise your PC is likely to induce (thus, why it is better to use some kind of pre-amp) - but, yeah it will work, just *probably* not up to snuff quality wise. Unless you have an unusually sensitive dynamic mic or an unusally quiet (electrically) PC - probably not in either case.

So - while what you imagine *can* work.. most here find - its less than optimal to go that way and any serious recording will lead to needing some extra stuff like mixer/pre-amp(s).

Maddogg6

Additionally...
ASIO4ALL will *only* expose 1 input for recording. kX ASIO will expose 8 stereo or 16 Mono in 16 bit or 4/8 in 24 bit. Plus - its *much* better performance latency - but, only 48 Khz.

Plus - if you use kX ASIO and learn to use kX DSP - you can use kX effects for low latency audio send effects. Not possible with ASIO4ALL.

Not in my opinion - especially for mixing... for most accurate reproduction - the least amount of processing the better - CMSS - I thought - caused freq response problems even for lower Q MP3's - The only thing I ever use is a compressor set to act like more of an auto level control.

g000fy

Maddogg6 you sound like the guy i need to talk to

i think the audigy 2 zs only records at 16bit 48khz anyhow....it will output at 24bit 192khz but for recording i think that part is only 16bit 48khz.

yea basically this is going to be a system that he can practice on.
next year he is selling hir harley and (his original plan) is to get the regular pro-audio mixing boards and pre-amps and all that jaz....which imho is over priced for what you can get a computer to do with the correct hardware....correct me if i am wrong....im not talking 100,000 dollar hardware but i imagine he is planning on spending 4,000 to 5,000 pretty easy.

ok it sounds like i will need an external mixer or pre-amp to hook to the audigy 2 zs Firewire port....this is better then usb correct?

what would be a cheap mixer/pre-amp that could do this?
dont forget i just bought the audigy 2zs plat pro (from creative.com) for like $90.00 i just missed the sale they had on black friday for $80.00

i already need to get a burner $20.00 and a couple gig ram (DDR so prob another $100) and a vcard with component out cause he has a CRT-TV with component connectors. which will prob be $75,00 or so
so i still need to get $200 worth of more stuff before the mixer/pre-amp....so hopefully you know a good one that is cheap you know that wil do the job still but it dont have to be a 16 in and 16out $2,000 dollar model

thanks for any info you have.

Maddogg6

Nope - kX now does 24/48 but with only 4 stereo inputs at a time. (I can with My A2ZS Platinum - (not 'pro'))
The CL drivers boasted 24/96 recording - but ASIO performance was so bad, it was un-usable.

Hmm - If I had $4k-$5K
- Id start with a multicore processor PC (DIY $2K),

- Id probably forgo the A2ZS too and get a 'pro' audio interface Like PreSonus FireStudio Project and more Audio Interfaces and Convertors at GuitarCenter.com. that has 8 descent (as good a any 'Pro-sumer' Berhinger Mixer) mic preamps built in.

- some good mics (?? I have a $100 L.D. Condenser thats pretty sensitive, but hardly 'transparent' - an it came with a smaller directional condenser suitable for micing an acoustic guitar - see link below - but mine was made by Nady - very similar tho),

(edit:
- A couple Mic preamps with compressor limiter - and get an audio interface with LINE ins (no need for mic preamps built into mixer) - if budget allows, is a preferred option

- Dont forget acoustical dampening, mic stands, pop filters, cables etc... /edit

- the remainder would go to software and be set up proper (A real DAW, Ableton is not really aimed at such recording - more aimed at DJ's). VST effects maybe (Mastering suite ?? A good reverb) You could still integrate the A2ZS as a sort of effects rack.

For the po-boy... just get what ever mixer with phantom power you can afford..
This is the cheapest (4 channel) I seen.
Behringer EURORACK UB1202 Mixer and more Unpowered Mixers at GuitarCenter.com.

Learn how to multi-track and get this (2 channel MIC preamps):
Behringer EURORACK UB802 Mixer and more Unpowered Mixers at GuitarCenter.com.

IMHO that sure mic is all but useless (is more suited for PA/Live use):
MXL 990/MXL 991 Recording Microphone Package and more Microphone Packages at GuitarCenter.com.
These will do much better for both vocals (the big one), Micing guitar (the small one - tho for electric guitar w/ amp possibly that Sure you have could do well for this, but I will assume acoustic guitars)
The Big one alone goes for $70
MXL 990 Condenser Microphone with Shockmount and more Condenser Microphones at GuitarCenter.com.

But of course - thats for a low budget - for 'pro' - you buy the Best Audio Interface, best mics and mic preamp you can afford, and you audition them before buying. Budget systems are limited to very little to choose from. Unless you find good deals in the used market..?? But I would not recommend that unless you are well versed on this stuff and know what a good deal is with out going by what the seller is saying.

BTW - getting anything that connects via firewire or USB - is removing the A2ZS as the ASIO device. Better understanding od DSP config can make the A2ZS an external effects unit with other audio interfaces.

g000fy

wow man you really put sometime into your reply and i want to thank-you.

this audio stuff can get expensive fast cant it

my dad been playing in live bands (thats prob why he tells me about the sure 57 and sure 58 so much)....good to know those mics are not ideal for recording in a semi studio enviroement....he was going to get a mic from one of his band members (non phantom power at the moment) and i bet it would not have sounded that good if he would have borrowed the sure 57 or sure 58.

ableton i been using cause it seams simple and has built-in tutorials that if my dad gets lost he can pull up real quick....believe it or not i tried quite a few DAW`s and had lots of problems with latency....ableton has a pretty sophisticated latency tool that makes it easy to find the best latency...that was another reason i was using it....i really liked soundforge (how it takes out the background noise buy doing an analysis) then automatically fixes it for recording live instead of recording and then it going back and doing audio repairs....but the damn thing is only 2 tracks
otherwise i would probably picked that one.
i tried cakewalk sonar 7 and it was pretty nice but had severe latency issues same with adobe audition 3.
note: at the time i only had that nf7-s v2.0 motherboard with onboard soundstorm and an old sb live (non 5.1) and this audigy ls.

maybe after i get that audigy 2zs in tomorrow i might give audition and sonar another try. but those are pretty complicated and i think he might get lost.

i really liked soundforge alot but that damn thing only does 2 tracks/channels.....so i couldnt figure out how to record vocals onto like a backing track, kareoke track or instrumental track at the same time...i guess its not a multi-track mixer which is a shame

thanks for all the great links and info.
i definately have this thread bookmarked.

Maddogg6

No Problem

Yeah it can - but it *is* amazing what can be done in the cheap these days.
He can get away with one of them, but it will still need a pre amp.

Well - ASIO4ALL, I found, added latency for me too - but kX ASIO should perform much better in any of the DAW's Unless there is something peculiar with your particular hardware I am not aware of which is totally possible.

Again, if insisting on using ASIO4ALL - then thats enough reason for most anyone.


Yeah Soundforge is aimed at other uses.

Well Sonar 5 and 6 - I have used quite a bit, and find it to be the most intuitive, stable and powerful.
Cubase is pretty good, but I find awkward.
I never tried Audition, but I understand its based on cool Edit, which I found (when cool edit) to be 'cheap' like a toy - but did not yet support VST's and used proprietary effects - which is what I found to be the 'cheap' aspect of it..

I dunno - Ableton I think is overcomplicated as it has features he wont likely use - hence the need for tutorials... Sonar, doesnt really need them if you have an understanding of the typical work flow of a studio (record bus, effect bus, arm track to record...) just a few tid bits that are 'daw' specific and kX specific (true with ableton too I would imagine)
If you have it - maybe show him the Sonar help file and let him decide..??
But on a resource limited machine what DAW used may not be an option, and have to go with what ever can yeild the most tracks (best ASIO performance) - Maybe Sonar 7 became a resource hog, but comparing ableton 2 (or was it 2.5 or something??) to sonar 5 or 6 - ableton would have lost in # of tracks at once - something I find to be somewhat crucial for multi-track recording.

Yeah, its not meant for multi-track recording last I knew.