Have no idea what the asio settings mean!

sumpm1 · Feb 18, 2003, 10:55 PM

Got a complete newbie to ASIO here. I got the SBLive! for specific use with kx for an ASIO fx processor for my guitar. I don't understand what all of the settings in the xx ROuter mean. The sliders or the numbers, read the help file, no real help to me.

Going to use with RT Player and SpinAudio ASIO FX Processor.

Can someone give me th e step by step?

Thanx in advance

gooday · Feb 19, 2003, 01:14 PM

Hi man,I have the same problem with you, I love guitar and hope it work mith my SB live 5.1.

Mata Hari · Feb 20, 2003, 01:47 AM

Hmz...
Ok... well, this is going to be version 2...
I just spend 2 hours on writing my explanation... and then, I clicked a wrong button... Sow bye-bye version 1...
Sigh, I hate computers, but here goes for a second time...

First of all, let me explain a little what ASIO is.
ASIO is a driver "API" made by Steinberg, for the purpose of creating low latency drivers...
Meaning, you can have your computer process audio data, coming, for instance, from some software on your pc, or an input on your sound card, and outputting it to your sound system, this all with latency's as low as near real-time.
So, when striking your notes on a guitar, it will add effects to it in almost real-time, and send it to your audio set.

The kX driver offers this way of audio streaming through 16 input and output channels
With latency’s as low as 2.66 ms. on a fast and tuned system on both recording and playback.
To explain this more, let me first try to explain the kX driver as far as my knowledge goes.

The kX driver is build for the emu10k1 and emu10k2 chips, found in sblive, audigy and other cards.
These emu10k chips are Digital Sound Processors (DSP).
If you look at the DSP part of the kX driver, you can in fact, edit the properties and behavior of the chip on your soundboard, by loading effects and such...

To explain this a bit more, let me first explain the main parts of the DSP window.
The best way to describe this is to see it as a kind of rack, with different in and output devices, effect devices, all connected by (very high grade) audio cables.
The "devices" you see in the DSP all have inputs (on the left) or outputs (on the right) connected with each other by virtual audio cables (the blue lines)

Apart from all kind of different effects, there are 4 distinct "devices" in the DSP window...
These are the FXbus (2 if you have an audigy/emu10k2 based card), the Prolog, the Epilog and the Routing.
Let me explain these 4 in some more detail...

First the FXbus...
The FXbus has 16 outputs, which output all audio streams generating from software inside your PC.
Like an mp3 playing in Winamp, or the Midi Wavetable controllers, and also the ASIO outputs...
All the audio data you will generate, you will find on this device.

Then the Prolog.
The prolog will output all audio data made OUTSIDE your pc... like for instance the digital optical in on the Live-Drive, or the digital CD connector on the live card itself.
One special output of this device, which is cause of much confusion among starting kX driver users, is the AC97 output.

Remember the emu10k chips are digital chips (yes purists, not all chips are digital :-), so it cannot input analog data by itself…
On the live card, there is another chip responsible for this, and that's the AC97 codec.
This chip connects all the analog inputs on the live board itself (NOT the Live-Drive!), mixes them, and feeds them into the emu10k.
This codec is, for instance, responsible for the line and mic-in of the card itself, and the CD analog in…
You can control this codec with the AC97 part of the kX mixer.
Just remember, the AC97 line on the prolog is where the audio data emerges (and also, for all other ins on the card and Live-Drive, the Prolog is where to get them).

The next device is the Epilog...
The epilog is where all data is eventually being output...
It consists out of 2 parts... the "real" outputs, and the "sampler" outputs.
The real outputs are simple, these are all outputs the emu10k is capable of...
An added note is however, the emu10k is capable of 4 stereo digital outputs (yes, the sblive, even the 512 PCI, are all 7.1 cards… how to take advantage of this without using a live drive, just ask me :-).
When you want to output to analog however, the data has to be converted to analog...
For the "front" channel, this is again done by the AC97 codec, but, for instance, the rear channel is done by an I2C codec (on a sblive anyways).
Reason for this note is that if you use analog output, it is important to know that the I2C codec is a better Digital to Analog converter then the AC97...

The best way to understand this, and to take advantage of this, is to not see the live cards as an audio card with front and rear outputs and all, but just to see it as a 4 stereo channel output chip (which it is).
Nobody tells you, that you HAVE to use the "green" connector for your front speakers, you can just as well make a setup for making it your headphone output, and using the "black" (rear) connector the feed to an audio system (in a club, use the green connector for headphone, black for the house audio feed, and start DJ-ing with 2 separate audio channels)
Why use the black for the house audio system? Simple... the black (rear) channel uses the I2C codec, and thus produces better sound... and the audience deserves the best :-)

The second part is the recording/sampler outputs...
These outputs (RecL/R and 16 ASIO recording channels) are used to FEED your pc with audio streams.
If you output to, for instance, the RecL/R ports, you can record/sample the audio to hard disk by using the standard windows recorder...
You can use the 16 ASIO channels, to sample data to, for instance Cubase, OR use them to feed data into SpinAudio/SoundDT's effect processors...
These ports are basically your input connections to your applications (as opposed to the FXbus, which is the output of your applications)

Last, the routing device...
Thinking back of the "rack" setup, it should already be clear what this is...
This is the central mixer part...
It mixes the standard outputs of the FXBus and prolog to the standard inputs of the epilog, using the settings in the kX mixer.
It also has a 2 special FX inputs, to add special effects to the sound…
The standard thing the router does however, is to send these 2 special FX mixes only to the real output channels, and not the recording channel.

But (!), and this is the power of kX... you don’t have to use any of this...
You can make your very own DSP setup, or different setups for different needs (thank god (or Eugene, but that's close to the same :-) for save options :-).
For instance... plug your guitar in your live drive's line in... Clear the whole DSP, and load the prolog and epilog...
Connect the line-in2 to the front speakers, and that’s it... directly routed...
Add another line from the same line-in to the RecL/R, and you can record it just as well
Maybe add a nice EQ or Phaser effect in between somewhere... you get the idea...

Now, that’s the DSP...
Back to ASIO...
I already made clear where the ASIO input's are (16 channels on the epilog, route anything to there, and you can use the ASIO input in any application, to monitor, add effects, sample to hard drive, or output on the same ASIO drivers (or any other output for that matter, but then you won't have the low latency for which ASIO is meant).

Now, the ASIO outputs...
You have 16 ASIO outputs (32 on an audigy).
Standard, these 16 channels are mapped 1-on-1 on the FX bus, so the 1st ASIO channel outputs on the 1st channel of the FX bus.
So, to go back a bit to our guitar setup...
Connect the line in on the prolog to some ASIO recording channels (preferably, the last 2... because there is a small pitfall with sb0060 live cards, the second and third ASIO recording lines don't work...if you can't get these 2 recording lines to function, check which card you have)

Anyways, you now have your guitar on the last 2 ASIO channels...
Fire up SpinAudio to add some effects... in spin audio, your input is now the last 2 ASIO channels...
Thinking back of the rack... you now have to get the output of SpinAudio, back into the DSP, to connect it to some sort of real output (like, for instance, our "front + recorder setup").
In Spin Audio, output to the first 2 ASIO channels, to get the signal on the first 2 outputs on the FX bus.
Now, draw some cables to the front speakers (and the recorder again maybe... or another ASIO recorder... you can do this as much as you like, but keep in mind, that every "connection" to and from the DSP, using the ASIO channels, adds latency).
Anyways... add and enable the effects in SpinAudio... start playing, and you just made your first ASIO effects :-)

Now... the last part...
The FXbus does not only output the ASIO channels, as mentioned above, it outputs ALL software generated audio streams...
Also the Synths, and DirectSound, and Wave...
The 2nd bit confusing part in kX (and your question :-) is the kX Routing window...
This in fact has noting to do with the DSP Routing device, but has everything to do with the FXBus...
If you look at the routing window, you can see all the software generated outputs, in a tree list on the left...
You have Wave (0/1, 4/5, 6/7 and 8/9, these correspond to the 4 wave out devices, their name implies the "standard" FX routing bus setup... 4/5, 6/7 and 8/9 are kind of just copies of the DirectSound/AC3 front/rear and cent/sub channels, 0/1 is the "standard" wave out, normally played on both front and rear with standard setup)
You have AC3 (DirectSound, as mentioned above), you have 2 synths, and you have ASIO.

Now, what does this all mean?
Well, the FXbus has its own internal routing/mixing... all those software outputs are mapped to one of the FXbus outputs...
Normally, stereo wave 0/1 are routed to channels 0 and 1 (and 13 and 14 for effects)
ASIO Outputs are normally mapped 1-on-1 to the FXbus (channel 1 to FXbus 1) synths to FX 2 and 3, etc. etc. (check the complete routing table).
You can change all these too if you want, but the standard setting are mostly fine anyways... maybe for very specific setups, you can change this, or add multi mixed effects to some outputs (like the standard reverb/chorus on channels 13/14)

So... that kind of concludes an overview of ASIO and kX...

I hope this all makes it a bit more clearly, and I hope that I myself didn’t make too many mistakes in Explaining this all :-)

Good luck with the drivers and DSP, and experiment allot :-) that’s the best way to learn

(Edited some mistakes out and made it a bit clearly at points :-)

Daniel Drummond · Feb 20, 2003, 11:31 AM

Great job Mata Hari! You answer will certainly help lots of people.

Obendega · Feb 20, 2003, 02:57 PM

Great explanation mata hari! Helped clear up a few things. One problem I am still having is when adding effects between the prolog and the ASIO inputs on the epilog. My aim is to send guitar through line in, add some effects and send to ASIO 0 & 1 for recording in Cubase SX. When I do this, however, the reverb sounds really bad. It sounds really echoey and thin.

The reverb sounds great when use the default setup but then it doesn't get recorded. When I turn the reverb down in the mixer there is no longer reverb in the WAV file I recorded on Cubase. I am assuming this is because the reberb is added after the recording stage so it only effects sound going to the speakers.

If you know why this is that would be great!

thanks.

Max M. · Feb 20, 2003, 04:54 PM

>When I do this, however, the reverb sounds really bad. It sounds really echoey and thin.

I'd recommend you to use either "APS Everb" or "Reverb R" instead of "Reverb Lite".
ReverbLite is designed to be used as send effects mostly. So when you just insert it into
prolog->asio chain you record wet signal only (by default wet of this reverb and dry signals are mixed by routing module).

Mata Hari · Feb 20, 2003, 07:23 PM

Oops... Steinberg... :-) (Vsampler Steinway piano patch you know... I love it :-)

Anyways, edited some of the errors out, made the latency a bit more clear, and added a small part for the FX inputs on the routing, and how it don't mix those when outputting to RecL/R (I hope i got that right though, i don't use routing all too often :-)

Max M. · Feb 20, 2003, 09:57 PM

yep, and i forgot to thank Mata Hari for this really cool overview and for the big help with other topics over the forum... great.. thank you.

Mata Hari · Feb 20, 2003, 10:00 PM

I should thank YOU and everybody else here for such a great driver :-)
I'm just trying to help :-)

Hanz Petrov · Feb 20, 2003, 11:03 PM

Nice one Mata Hari. :-)

You wannna re-write the kX help file for us?

err... or are you a double agent working for Kreative?

(and maybe an exotic dancer too? ;-)

Anyway, keep up the fine work - your help is much appreciated (and that goes for everyone hanging out here pitching in with answers to questions - both the easy and the not-so-easy).

Regards,

/Hanz

Mata Hari · Feb 20, 2003, 11:10 PM

lol, well, I might be an exotic creative secret dancer :-p

about rewriting the help, dunno if I know enough to do that... but maybe the above text is a nice Quick Guide to kX?
Putting that together with a "common pitfall" guide (like the no asio recording on sb0060, AC97 things, suff like that) could be a basic start guide maybe...

But, as with all... it's mainly the users responsebility to actually go read thing like this... (so making a big fullscreen banner while installing the driver with "GO READ THIS" might help :-)

Daniel Drummond · Feb 20, 2003, 11:44 PM

Maybe it would be a good idea to make some "sticky" posts in the top of the forums or a kx mixer faq with the most common question and answer... It would grow as fast as good answers show up here in the forum...

sumpm1 · Feb 21, 2003, 05:26 AM

thank you, I got the asio to work with rRT player.

**Eugene Gavrilov** · Feb 21, 2003, 08:48 PM

hello, Mata Hari

really, a very nice 'guide' to kX.
do you mind if I add it to our site and to our help file?

/Eugene

Mata Hari · Feb 22, 2003, 11:35 AM

Not at all, please do :-)

gooday · Feb 25, 2003, 01:19 AM

I'm gonna translate it into Chinese anyway, it would be a great help with kX driver users in China.

James Argo · Mar 1, 2003, 07:04 PM

Mata Hari... Where do you live ? Indonesia ? Nice explanation...

Obendega · Mar 1, 2003, 07:37 PM

Thanks for the reply Max M.

I am using Reverb R though. Is there another way to get effects from the DSP applied to a WAV file using ASIO? I have tried so many things and just can't seem to figure this one out.

I'm assuming inserting an effect directly into a prolog to epilog chain is not the way to do it. I have messed around with the settings a bunch when I do this and it is always incredibly echoey and muddy.

Turning up the effects in the Router under ASIO didn't work either. It still only effects the output. No effects are actually applied to the WAV file.

I have to record an audition CD this week for a friend and would love to be able to use the Reverb R.

thanks.

Sidney · Mar 2, 2003, 02:47 PM

Hello, I´m a newbie in this forum. In Creative Labs site I am told that SB Live cards have no support to ASIO, but the Audigy cards have. If I install the KX driver I will be able to use ASIO and get low latency option with my SB Live! (EMU10K1 chip) ? Cause I´m using Cubase and I notice audio out of sync with midi after recording. Also, I´ve tried to use the black rear output of the card but there was no sound. Should I enable any option? Thanks.

Mata Hari · Mar 3, 2003, 06:12 AM

These drivers will get you ASIO in and out on any emu10k1 or 10k2 card (sb 512 pci, live value, live 5.1 and the audigy, audigy2 support is in progress)

on the black output, that is the rear output, if using the creative drivers, set your speakermode on surround 4 speakers, or 5.1... on kX, they are enabled by default