DH Editorial: "Unsupported and bitter"

jcox

As the IT technician in the University I work at, I get to spec new PCs
for our computer labs. We've just put in a new workshop and I went
for nVIDIA specifically because of this issue. There are 45 seats in
the lab with at least 5 more PCs to come so assuming ~$500 per
card that's $25,000 ATI lost because I'm not willing to be stuck with
a dud Linux box in future.

Maybe that'll make ATI sit up and notice...

PS This purchasing decision was entirely my own and in no way
reflects the general policy of my employer.

bug77

But they don't care about things like this as long as they can sign a deal with Dell and sell 500.000 crappy X1300 cards, no one will ever ask for any drivers besides what they get on CD with the computer. And it's not really ATi's fault the market is like this...

Netrat33

May I ask what type of video card your lab is using and for what?

jcox

But they will care if places like Munich and Korea go through with their
Linux migration plans. A whole city represents a big chunk of purchasing
power. OK, in the scheme of things my lab doesn't show on their radar
but at least its evidence that the ATI on linux snafu affects strategic IT investment.
What happens when Vista comes along and corporations face the prospect of a
massive hardware upgrade or to jump ship? What's quality Linux support worth
to them then?

Joovilhar

Well, I don't know about Dell, but Sun is already shipping its workstations with NVidia cards. Given that said workstations are certified for Solaris, SuSE and Red Hat Linux - plus Windows 64-bit edition, I guess it's not surprising that NVidia is the only game in town.

Given the excitement the industry has for running rock-solid Solaris apps on cheap and cheerful x86 hardware, you can rest assured that Sun will sell more than half a million of these workstations.

As has already been said, for the increasing number of government (and public) projects that are obliged to use open source (which will mean Linux for the most part), ATi is effectively ruling itself out. If ATi holds its course, it will find that 5 years down the road, its percentage of Linux users will still be around 5% (or maybe less), while NVidia's may be far higher.

This is good news for NVidia, as it means it will be able to command market share where ATi cannot compete due to a lack of driver support. But it will be bad news for ATi, who will find to its cost that Linux upgrade cycles are a lot slower than Windows ones - and all those potential customers it could have had are now happily using NVidia for the next 10+ years.

I expect a large exodus to Linux/Solaris/FreeBSD soon, as Windows Vista is turning a lot of people off. Combined with the need for massive and expensive hardware upgrades, a loss of control over their own investment and BS policies (like requiring a new OS licence if you change your motherboard), many companies may just decide that a non-Windows OS offers better value for money at the end of the day. Many more people will just stick with XP beyond its end of life date. Hell, I know people who are still using Windows 98 and NT 4.00...

madmatty

Before they can worry about linux support there has to be a linux that can establish itself as THE linux. There needs to be one distrobution that is distinctively linux that both ati and nvidia can support 100%. Lindows is probably the closest environment for this goal as it sells it sef as he complete linux desktop envonment that can rivel windows. With windows everyone has the same base instalation so that drivers can be implemented 100% properly which isnt true if everyone decided to migrate to what ever linux distrobution takes there fansy.

Vista is deffinatly going to make people think about what they want in an os before installing the insanely bloated desktop that is vista (well the x86 beta is insanely huge) and it doesnt even offer that much over XP bar a new UI which although looks prettier is no faster and just beggs for yet another system upgrade to cope with its requirments. The os is supposed to be just an interface, not a resource stealing hog thats takes all the power away from a new machine before we launch our apps and games that really need that power :/

All that said, linux is in no shape to take over from where xp leaves off so users are not likely to change sides. It has very little support and probably the most important aspect is the games. Unless youre fully IT literate linux isnt even a concideration. and i guess this is what ATI see's too.

jcox

We mostly needed to support Maya and OpenGL across Mac and PC
(which means Windows now and Linux in the near future). Another consideration
was to accommodate Apple Final Cut Studio which at the time we spec'd this
up self-selected nvidia because it looked like Motion would only run hardware accellerated
with pixel shaders under OS X.4 + GeForce. Other areas support games design which obviously locks us into XP but since we can get bulk discounts on PCs to
one spec they got nvidia too.

The main point is that I have to think where we'll be in 5 years time -- these PCs
aren't like home games machines you can update every 12-18 months. I have to
factor in as much flexibility as possible which means upgrade paths _and_
migration paths. OK, ATI caught up in Linux support since we started the
lab project but they still don't do anything like SLI. Doubling up the old GPUs
so we only have to buy half the number of replacement gfx cards is a major
saving that we can't aford to waste so SLI support on LInux is a must have for us. We also won't be switching to Vista.
Ever. If at all possible.

If Macrodobe ever port Flash/Director/Photoshop to Linux I'll be immediately
relegating XP to a legacy OS and right now nvidia looks like the better bet.

SFOSOK

I would still have to say their x1900 series looks pretty damn good its just ugly, hot, and loud.I don't have linux but I feel bad for u that do. I guess Nv is the way to go for you guys for a while.

Calson

This is not about user base, it's about perception. Sure, there may not be all that many Linux gamers compared to windows gamers, but that is not the point. When a company decides to migrate their 20,000 pc's to linux, all they will hear is that ATI doesn't support linux. They don't want to get into the details of what is or isn't supported. Therefore, those 20,000 pc's will have nVidia cards in them. That is a lot of lost sales for ATI. And, since most companies have about a 3 year replacement cycle, that is 20,000 lost sales every 3 years, that will be very hard to get back, because companies don't change their configurations just for kicks..

Netrat33

Once again I'm asking, what video card are you suggesting? Not brand, the video card.

Netrat33

Companies migrating is Linux lover's dream, but it's not happening. When they hear there is no real support for linux, not ATI cards, they wont switch. The migration you would most likey see if EVER would be towards Macs. Most likely they'll stick with XP for a long time, then when all the good press about Vista (if unless we get another "Me" edition) comes out, they'll move there.

ronnn

I really support the idea of linux and think Ati should offer good support. On the other hand - I have tried to install linux at least 6 times and I suck. I would almost welcome owning a vid card that had no support - as I will likely try again. ATi needs to support linux, but linux also needs to become more user friendly to gain a larger user base. This cut and paste or typing in large complicated commands just to install java or whatever is really 60's. The learning curve is just to much for simpletons like myself.


edit: Comparing this to the sli debate is just silly and has nothing to do with the subject. Both those companies have so many past sins, that an off topic flame war is always sure to follow.

rpb01r

But then, it doesn't say that Linux users affect _all_ decisions, just some. From a business point of view, I would be very interested in improving my market share by 5% --- this is make-or-break, particularly for my hypothetical big fat management bonus. However, it does imply that Linux users affect some decisions, and that would be an acceptable assertion. Indeed, if Joe Public knows a Linux user, he
probably knows him as "that computer guy" and will probably ask for his opinion. Windows users, Apple users, Solaris users and FreeBSD users will also have opinions.

Joe Public, however, most certainly doesn't go to sites like Tom's Hardware. Joe Public goes to the local computer shop and gets fleeced into buying some PC or other. That means he's probably going to his house with a generic box under his arm, some five-year-old onboard graphics adapter and a copy of Windows XP Home edition. Joe Public probably doesn't care about games for it either, because Joe Public has a Playstation or an Xbox for that sort of thing.

Just for the record, a friend of mine owns a computer shop. If a customer wants a machine, it'll have an Nvidia card in it. He's had some trouble with ATi cards on Windows in the past, so now he just doesn't use them. I don't know how many machines he's built, but his influence is carrying --- not to so many people on the global scale, but enough guys like him do make a difference. This is a little off-topic, but I'm just using it to illustrate a point. It depends who you irk. He might be a little irrational (he would only stock two brands of modem as he had trouble with the others) but then he has a degree of influence.

This gives carte blanche to Nvidia for Linux, and they'll quite happily mop it up. Looking around our labs here, there is only one machine with an ATi graphics card in it, and that's a Rage 128. Here's why: our suppliers have to make sure that when we put in an order for a thousand visualisation workstations, they've got to work. They will stick Nvidia cards in the box because they know they won't get support
calls from us.

Although I don't quite understand the general decision to keep drivers closed (there have been countless arguments with Nvidia by people elsewhere), by providing a half-decent driver they provide choice. ATi's best plan for improving "speed/image/stability for xp" would be to open their drivers. Anyone who has worked in computer hardware development will know that a massive proportion of time is spent on the drivers. If I, as a company owner, realise I can just make a reasonable driver, then release the code, and a bunch of guys will fix it up and maintain it for free, I'm going to jump at that chance.

Don't forget: servers need graphics cards too. Although no-one really cares about the 3D performance of a server (maybe that is a generalisation), people are going to want a more 'supported' card. Even if this is just a psychological choice, if card A supports Windows, but card B supports Windows, Linux and FreeBSD, and there's
little to choose between them, buyers will go for card B every time.

Take it easy,
-r

Calson

Munich: 14,000 desktops migrating to Linux
New Zealand's ministry of education put Suse linux on it's school's desktops

There are many other stories, like Paris' planned migration, or South Africa's revenue service. Read the news.. It is happening..

Netrat33

I know. And I've also read the stories of them hopping BACK because it's actually more expensive (time) using it due to lack of support.

=JpS=SgtRock

I had to register to respond to the misperceptions, misinformation, and general all around FUD that I've been reading in this thread.

First off there's this:

Red herring. There is no need to get to a single distribution before ATI and Nvidia can support it. Driver support primarily affects the kernel, which is common to all of the distributions. The actual distributions are fine supporting an incredible range of hardware for this reason. ATI and Nvidia have already solved the support issue. It's just that ATI isn't putting near enough effort into doing it right.

There have been two options for Nvidia cards for a while that work for every distribution out there; the open source nv driver that works for 2D, and Nvidia's proprietary, binary only driver for solid OpenGL 3D support.

Nvidia, btw, chose a development methodology years ago that lets them leverage a single codebase for all of their drivers. There's a very thin shim of software that they have to write and maintain for each platform that they support. That's why they can support Windows, Linux, MacOSX, all the Unices, etc. That puts them light years ahead of ATI in many ways.

Then there's this:

Uhh, no. First off, id software's entire game line runs under Linux, as does UT, UT2003, UT2004, and UT2007 (forthcoming). Neverwinter Nights, America's Army, Enemy Territory, Savage 2 (forthcoming), and X2:The Threat (forthcoming very soon) all have native Windows and Linux clients. Some of them have MacOSX clients as well. I'm sure you've heard of those.

Other lesser known games include Heavy Gear 2, Alpha Centauri, and X-Plane. X-Plane, btw, is considered by many pilots to be the best flight simulator out there. It can model any plane ever built (and some that existed only in someone's fevered imagination ). It has a 7 DVD set that covers 80% of the Earth's terrain, and another one that covers part of Mars.

The list above is by no means complete. It's only meant to show that there's a pretty wide variety of genres supported already. The interesting point to note is that the number and quality of available cross platform games continues to grow. There is clearly a growing number of game software development companies that see the Linux/Mac OSX market as a viable one.

There's also the capability to run many native Windows games using either wine and/or Cedega. This support varies from perfect to tolerable depending upon the game and the vendor's willingness to work with the wine project team and/or Transgaming.

Umm, no again. Actually, Joe Public doesn't even know that those sites exist. When he wants to know what kind of new desktop or laptop that he wants to buy, he goes to three primary sources; TV ads, print ads, and word of mouth. Of the two, he probably relies most heavily on a combination of the TV ads and word of mouth. His source for the word of mouth is going to be his geek buddy or cousin. That's where the information about Linux and Mac OSX is really spreading from. It's slow at first, but the base grows geometrically. It's probably the single biggest reason that the Linux desktop has slowly but steadily continued to take the installed base share away from Windows.

This was a valid concern in the past. There's good news on this point, however. I would strongly recommend downloading an ISO image for Knoppix, SimplyMepis, Ubuntu, or Kubuntu LiveCD and burning it to a disk. Then just stick it in your CD-ROM drive and boot! It'll give you a chance to explore Linux without having to worry about affecting your Windows drive(s) at all. Heck, if you're hesitant to burn an image, go to CheapBytes and order one for about $5. That'll give you a chance to explore a lot of Linux apps without having to make any sort of permanent commitment.

Quarter

Linux is ready for Prime Time now!
Company's that are so short sighted as to not see the turning tide will be left behind.

jec0s

I've used Linux for two years now on ATI based chips and totally completely agree with this article!

ATI needs to wake up, they say Linux is a small portion, well guess why? B/C anyone that has an ATI card has to suffer from its horrid driver that is rubbish compared to nvidia's driver.

And guys, Please have used linux more than once recently to argue with us. Saying Lindows (which is now Linspire) is the best to head Linux is the most ridiculus statement I've ever heard, and I bet many linux users would agree.

Get on it ATI, or I start recommending only nvidia (which i've never did).

ronnn

I had no problems with affecting my windows as I have 2 hard drives and the dual boot was no sweat. My last problem was wanting to install java - so as to play go online at kiseido. I cut and paste and edited until I wasn't sure if I had wrecked my install. But I never did get that java plug installed. Actually not sure if I have ever been able to install any program - if it doesn't come preinstalled with the ubuntu version - I can't seem to get it working. I can run windows or dos and solve any conflicts or whatever, but linux has me beat. The idea of installing any vid drivers and doing what it takes to run games is just scary. Now with windows buy a new printer or camera, drop in the install driver disk and it works - Linux needs to become easier if general home use acceptance is to go up. I am not totally computer stupid and family/friends actually often ask for help. I do support the idea of open source and hate huge monopolies like microsoft and would like nothing better than to run linux, but unless I decide to sacrifice the time to take a course - can't even get it to do what I want.

DHR

This seems funny from someone who boast " A64 on Asus A8V Deluxe Bios 1.7" in his sig. The most sensible way of exploiting the AMD 64 capabilities on the desktop is with Linux. WinXP 64 Bit Edition is much less mainstream (no significant 64-bit software, lots of missing drivers).

(I've been using only 64-bit Linux on my notebook and desktop for a year and a half. I don't play games so my experience may not matter to you.)

DHR

Very useful article. I just registered so I could respond.

I have a Dell 30" LCD monitor that requires "dual link" DVI to drive it. It is fairly difficult to find dual link cards in the PC world.

- there are a bunch of dual link cards for Apples because the Apple 30" LCD requires this and has been out for a while. One such card will work on the PC but is expensive and old and AGP: ATI 9600 Pro PC & Mac Edition.

- some "workstation" cards (ATI FireGL, nVidia Quadra) support dual link, but are quite expensive.

- nVidia 7800 cards (expensive)

- ATI Radeon 1000 family cards. Some are inexpensive.

I bought an ATI Radeon 1300, hoping for Linux support. Why was I foolish enough to think that it might support Linux? Because
(1) the ATI FAQ says that "Radeon 8500 and later" cards are supported by the driver (http://www.ati.com/products/catalyst/linux.html#2)
(2) when I phoned pre-sales tech support (hard to find the number!) they quoted the FAQ.
(3) I assumed that the open source radeon driver would work because the card would be upward compatible

I don't care much about speed nor 3d acceleration. As a bonus, the 1300 didn't have a fan (I hate noise). But it didn't work in Linux, except with the VESA driver. As the article pointed out, there is no VESA resolution to match my LCD (2560x1600). I even looked at the VESA BIOS to see if I could add the resolution, but I decided it wasn't worth my time. (I should point out that there were some funny artifacts on my screen when I used the ATI drivers under WinXP; I didn't trouble-shoot that because lack of Linux support vetoed the card.)

So I've ended up with an nVidia 7800GTX which may never be used for 3d! I replaced my computer's power supply just to support this card. What a waste of money and electricity. (The Dell 7800GTX has a non-standard cooler which is reasonably quiet but requires 2.5 slots.)

What should ATI do?

1) release enough specification so that the xorg Radeon driver can be made to support the x1000 family. This costs very little: the open source community would most likely do the real work. This should take no time. It ought to have been done 5 months ago.

2) update the proprietary Linux drivers to handle the x1000 family.

3) [utopian] release enough specifications that an open source driver can accelerate 3d operations. ATI did this for (I think) 9200 and lower cards. See http://ftp.x.org/pub/X11R7.0/doc/html/radeon.4.html

ATI is my home-town team. But they've lost me as a customer, at least for now.

brutusmaximus

You make a VERY good point and one that has been overlooked, if ATI dont have the resources or time, then release it to the community to develop themselves, some of the teams and individuals out there are more than capable of improving the drivers if ATI dont want to.