Cabinet Sim..Special EQ?

ROBSCIX · Oct 9, 2005, 01:17 PM

Hey guys, Upon reading another post about guitars and KX, it was mentioned that using a parametric Eq and cutting/boosting certain frequencies willgive the sounds of certain Cabinets. Ha sanybody considered posibbly making a special EQ with just presets, for different sonic characteristics of cabinets. This idea is wee known, tiger was mentioning it in another post, so any thought on maybe developing this concept further. Also on the subject of EQ's why is it that the P5 seems to use less resources than G10?..I know it's in the code but just seems a parametric would be more taking than a graphic...thx for the info and discussion guys..

Tiger M · Oct 9, 2005, 01:56 PM

Such a 'preset only' EQ would be very hard to do, since we have to measure the frequency response of the cabinet we want to simulate and we must have all those cabinets for real to do that

.

If someone could provide all those frequency response graphs, than it would be just a matter of matching them with several P5s.

ROBSCIX · Oct 9, 2005, 02:27 PM

I am not saying it needs to be exact. IS it possible to do some type of cabinet emulation..that info you gave before about using the P5's adding boost's and cut's to get a specific sound. Is it possible to create some type of effect based around this idea? I am going from the other post that you were mentioning P5's...something like STACK, Black Face etc. I am just throwing around ideas to spark ideas and conversations. SO can you tell me what would be possible along these lines? Thx for info.. BTW those frequency response graphs, couldn't they be taken from a modelling processor? might be an easy way to come up with the info...

Maddogg6 · Oct 9, 2005, 02:36 PM

I have found previously sweep graphs on several cabinest - it was a site that had IR files too... I wish I could remember where it was.

I did start making DSP settings that had 10-12 parametrics set to do just that with (my opinion only) limited success - deleted them and started looking into doing it in dane because of pre-set saving nightmare I ran into using soo many PEQ's..

Rob - check pms

ROBSCIX · Oct 9, 2005, 02:57 PM

Cool, how many Parametric can you get going? You have a A2 correct? That's why I mentioned it I figured a few guys were either wanting the effect or figuring out a way to do it. I am studying Dane right now. Maybe if it was just a filter that accepted various numeric inputs..so you could add where the boost and cuts are a specific frequencies..but I think that woul be too "analytical" I mean that response would need to be more smooth I would imagine..Hmm I just Like playing my guitar with KX. and I like talking about advancements that would be possible with KX. Amp modelling/Cabinet simulation would be awsome. I can't say for sure if it's possible.. Alot of use have modelling processor(stompboxes) if we could figure out how to graph the response..I think I should be able to graph the respnse considering the software and gear I have but what could we do with it? -I guess amp modelling and cabinet simulation is two different things. which also pose seperate problems...hmm..
MADD-check Pm's.

Maddogg6 · Oct 9, 2005, 03:28 PM

Its not what I found before - but its 1 (3 actulally)
http://web.mit.edu/kumpf/www/Acoustics/spectrum1.jpg

and
http://web.mit.edu/kumpf/www/Acoustics/spectrum2.jpg

Sony has free IRs (needs sony Accoustic Mirror plug in to use) of reverbs and more - off subject but interesting
http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/dow...p1.asp?CatID=6

It appears Im not finding what I had before... but there were several graphs of different sampled IRs and graphs that accompanied them (effects rack units, microphones) done/created/measure/sampled by a recording studio I found on a local musicians web site.

Will post if I find... but googles not comming up with it.

Maddogg6 · Oct 9, 2005, 03:56 PM

Well, as I recall, this studio has a somewhat quiet room for the cabinet part, and thats what interested me soo much because I dont have acces to a 'quite room'

I was able to get 10-12 PEQ I prolly would have added more, but thats what I ended up with - I also boosted my Xtram to 2MB in the KX buffer setting - used proFX Kxlt and its inputs . not sure how much resources was used.. But when I tried adding any delay of over 150 ms or so, or a reverb... error not enough resource... Which really, was the reason for me dropping it, not to mention the whole 'making filters' in dsp/dane... (The math is just more than I can take)

Im thinking if a custom plugin would make much better use of resources.

ROBSCIX · Oct 9, 2005, 04:18 PM

what card do you have Dogg?. I must admit I never knew you could adjust the Xtram settings. I always run out of xtram! cool where do you set those setting Madd? How do you set up KX to use the most effects possible? I mean set the DSP to use the maximum amount of resources possible? you can find lots of IR's they are used alot in convolution reverbs..

Maddogg6 · Oct 9, 2005, 05:46 PM

If i understood eq techniques in dsp better - or had an example explained with multiple freq and BW/Q - I would make eq curves of like 25-30 PEQ equivelents, I would then jump on taking white noise samples (or freq sweeps) and running them trough my J station and other IR's I have (and VSTs) to make some recordings of the ones I like and use and send to someone with the measuring s/w to plot out curves. I am looking for more 'clean amp' ones because they seem to be the J-stations weakness, but that may be my guitar/pickups tho. Just for the learning experience even.

Also tho, aside from eq - adding compressors to individual bands would help add some realism also. but, that I think is getting into too much resource for 10K2's.

When I was playing with this - what I found was.. If I eq'd to remove harshness, it tended to make the tone sound muffled or nasel - which is why I used so many eq's. Ive read about this from that site I cant find, and they were indicating such complex EQ may have 1000 or more bands. It was an excelent resource actually. They gave all the gory details and was written real well. So while we prolly could get descent results, 'realism' will of course be nowhere near an actual amp.

Oh, I also played with some eq before AND after the distortion which made significant differences - espesially getting rid of 'muddyness'. I also added the graphic eq post-distortion, but with out a BW/Q (i think) - it just made it sound off - cant really explain it. I was either getting too muffles or too harsh - very difficult to have happy medium with sooo many controls.

Now, if we had a way of taking an IR file and transfering it to a dsp eq plug in directly or conversion/ deriving a math formula that could be emulated in dsp... we could maybe have something to be very excited about. I mention the math formulas only because I only see that aspect of DSP EQ - but nothing explaing how to take that into microcode. My math programming skills (I used to know some assembly, but simple add/sub/mult/divide only) prevent me from maybe figuring it out for myself.

ROBSCIX · Oct 9, 2005, 05:55 PM

Dogg how do you set the Xtram your speaking of? Also there is a DX plugin that does that it was mentioned before..waves Q-clone..used for getting a EQ curve from a external EQ into a software form..this is kindof what your talking about correct? I also would have no idea how to implment such math.

Maddogg6 · Oct 9, 2005, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX

what card do you have Dogg?. I must admit I never knew you could adjust the Xtram settings. I always run out of xtram! cool where do you set those setting Madd? How do you set up KX to use the most effects possible? I mean set the DSP to use the maximum amount of resources possible? you can find lots of IR's they are used alot in convolution reverbs..

I have an A2zs plat - the setting are in the (right click - settings - buffers) its called TANK MEMORY SIZE (top setting for me) - Too bad its not so easy to change the iTram too. lol

I do have a TON of irs for Accoustic Mirror and for Waves IR - but the ONLY amp sims I found were at that site. I have reverbs, flanges, microphones, multi fx from high end rack units. The IRs for the amp/cabs where for waves and I dont have it to play with so I deleted em. I do have accoustic mirror and thought I could maybe make them work with it, or convert them somehow, but they didnt.

I knew when I seen them I wanted it and was really bummed when I didnt find how I could convert the waves IR files to accoustic mirrors format.

Maddogg6 · Oct 9, 2005, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX

Dogg how do you set the Xtram your speaking of? Also there is a DX plugin that does that it was mentioned before..waves Q-clone..used for getting a EQ curve from a external EQ into a software form..this is kindof what your talking about correct? I also would have no idea how to implment such math.

Im not aware of that plugin - and dont know if helps - I assume it creates the same file format Im not able to make use of. But yes, it appears thats what im talking about.

That site (claimed) they did it all manually with hardware FFT's they had that didnt really make alot of sense to me, as it got pretty technical and started getting into a subject I didnt have interest in (at the time). I was just looking for how to convert them for AM . lol Well, that and the concept of applying IRs to audio to emulate just about anything thats audible.

Im wondering if they dropped their site or something, I think it was a studio in california, but Im not sure.

Maddogg6 · Oct 9, 2005, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX

... I mean set the DSP to use the maximum amount of resources possible?

I used profx ins and outs - very basic - I started with a blank dsp setup and only added the eqs (I had tried alot ot combinations of different ones but the PEQs -peaking and notch - gave best results), 1 & 2 distortion, the Kxlt2 (analog rear out only, 1 fx mix, no asio profex plugin (at the time I didnt understand the profx very well or the asio module, I never did record anything) oh and only 1 src. It ended up being a very good KX learning experience even tho I wasnt completely happy with the results for my intentions - J-station gave me a better tone anyway so I dropped it.

I also experimented with paralell and series eq configs and found the combinations better than all in series or all in parallel. Some gain stages too were used to boost input to levels the eqs would deal with too as I recall - I did notice not all plug-ins expect the same input levels for what ever reason. (again its been a while)

Like (simplified):

In - gain - gain - highpass - peak/notch (multiples) - A
in - gain - gain - notch/peak (multiples) - A

A - paralell - distortion - mix (with sends 1& 2)

send 1- notch/peak - (distortion) - mix 2 - output
send 2- Lowpass - peak - notch - mix 2 - output

I just went nuts adding a mixer with sends to ajust between the 2 (up to 4) paralell chains. etc.. it was quite cluttered too.

Oh, and I plugged directly into the front panel input (A2zs platinum). Also tried through j-station , but bypassed - I was able to eliminat the gains by doing so, as I used the spdif out of the j-stat, but was less pleasing.

Also, xTram wasnt my problem ?? was a while ago.
yes, just verified... PEQs dont use any xTram - btw
Im pretty sure (??) it was the instrs I ran out of.

I could have (and wanted to) added more PEQs, but because i was still learning about the KX dsp interface, i didnt know exactly what resource I was running out of, just that id get errors when I tried adding some plugs and was trying to leave some resource for other the effects too.

The biggest headache (by far) was the multiple eqs (settings) and preset saving. Very cumbersome to manage.

Imagine experimenting with 20 parametric eqs with sweeping bands and adjustable Q - it may sound like fun, but it gets hard real quick.

Maddogg6 · Oct 10, 2005, 01:33 PM

robscix - pms are full.