The anniversary of the Bomb

Falstaff · Aug 12, 2005, 05:46 PM

I watched recently as both sides of the controversy regarding the atomic bomb attacks in Japan, remembered their contibutions, their losses and perhaps the regrets for the decisions made long ago.
The Japanese embraced another year of attritiion as former survivers succumbed to illness and old age and their stories are retold to the world. The combined casualties of both blasts included both Japanese and Allied prisoners of war, and of course Europeans that lived in those cities. 140,000 lives plus or minus have died as a result of both bombs and the subsequent health problems that plagued them till death.
Colonel Paul Tibbets spoke proudly of the contribution of his crew and the Enola Gay, and the Prime Minister of Japan expressed regret and called for a stiffer military posture for Japan.
Although the yoke of occupation has long been gone from the shores of Japan, a lingering resentment for the atomic attack persists among the remaining survivers and nationalists of Japan, they feel that both blasts in Japan were for the benefit of the Russians to demonstrate the resolve of America and the military that steamrolled back into the Japanesee occupied territorys.
Was the bomb necessary, taking into account the argument that it accelerated the end of the Japan, larger questions remained to be answered as well.
Emperor Hirohito was culpable for war crimes?
Did MacArthur whitewash the emperors role in WWII?
Could we have found a conventional method to remedy a statemate prior to the end of the war.l
Why did the political leaders of the Japanese government become martyrs for the emporers crimes?
What was the level of culpability of General MacArthur in the process of hiding the Emporers involvement in the terrible attack on Pearl Harbor and the rape of China?

Pompey · Aug 12, 2005, 08:24 PM

The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki probably saved more lives than they took. However they were civilians, such an attack on the civilian population (regardless of what their government /country did) is unacceptable in my opinion.
The survivors have a right to compensation but as a nation Japan has no right to play the victim. Japan pillaged, murdered and raped its way across Asia and has yet to accept responsibility.
The emperor was not really responsible for the war. He was considered divine and above worldly matters, he was a spiritual leader. He bears some responsibility but the majority lies with the Japanese military.
I think they should have dropped an atomic bomb off the coast of Tokyo, not so close it would destroy or adversely affect the city but close enough for the leaders to see it. Their surrender should have been demanded, if they did not surrender they should have nuked the remains of Kyoto, a heavily symbolic target.
Then again, its easy to play the general after the war.

I think rather than arguing over the past use of the bombs we should be focusing on the here and now. We need to force countries with WMD them to decommission them, but with the current state of world affairs I dont see it happening any time soon.
I would like to travel to Hiroshima some day, As I new Zealander I wouldnt have to buy many drinks apparently.

Falstaff · Aug 13, 2005, 07:50 AM

Emperor Hirohitos culpability was established on the twilight of WWII when testimony and documents with his stamp indicated he was aware and even acknowleged his role in Pearl Harbour, Manchuria and forced labour in China, India and Burma. His cabinet was very powerful, but he exercized emperial privilege and rewarded his generals and admirals for their service. It is know that he was aware of the impending war from his war cabinet as it was at the time, and eye witness testimony and the testimony of his servants place him prominently in the decision making processes of all war planning.
As a people, I think his country was divided about war making and his early cabinet and governmnet were as well about the subject of war, but he had the deciding vote.
As for the bomb(s) I often wonder if we could have accomplished more if we did state a blast somewhere remote where they could witness it, but it is problematic at best, I do know it was considered by Truman.
The genie is out of the bottle and perhaps Stalin would have been ultimately successful and used it before us. I think we dropped two bombs on Japan for a variety of reasons to include sending a clear message to the Russians that we would use it if we had to to obtain our goals and though the Nuclear stalemate didnt begin there, the first steps to a Cold War were taken.

~~trodas~~ · Aug 13, 2005, 03:17 PM

Pompey - I can't agree more. Killing civilians can't be justify by anything.

Yet it helped end the war and also it have considerable deterrent affect for NOT USING atomic weapons. In my humble opinion, this could very well saved the human race from atomic war. I mean - if we did not see clearly and w/o any doubt, what is the atomic warfare capable off, then in the tight times (for example during the Cuby crisis in 1962) someone might loose the nerves and start the extinction of human race...

Therefore no matter how horrible this bombing was, it not only save many lifes, but it also might save us all

Grater good wins?

IMHO the Hirohito was guilty. He should stop the madness, but he did nothing to stop it. The worst case was the terrible medical experiements with chemical weapons, conducted on Chinasee and few downed US pilots, including cuting their organs alive, w/o any anesthetis (because they possibly coult interfere with the poisons the persons are exposed to...) to research, how internal organs are damaged when person is exposed to almost death dose of chemical weapons.
Quite frankly, their experiments make famous nazi Mengele doctor look like innocent schoolboy...

Yet it is publicaly very much unknown, witch up to todays piss the Chinasee off. It is unknown, because USA exchanged the reserch results for not punishing the doctors in any way. One of the leading ones was later even in goverment as minister - luckily not minister of health - god forbid this...

About Pearl Harbor - I quess that it was just a swift and necessary movement for the Japs, because the existing US fleed poses significiant danger to their expansion in search for oil and bases, both air and marine fur submarines.
Besides, it is probably again not common knowledge for Americans, that US army was aware of the attack, yet blocked these informations for the fleet in hope the Japs will be sucesfull and their attack so devastating, so people did not protest when country go to the war with them

Quote:

Roosevelt boxed in Japan just as completely as Crassus had boxed in Spartacus. Japan needed oil. They had to invade Indonesia to get it, and to do that they first had to remove the threat of the American fleet at Pearl Harbor. There never really was any other course open to them.

To enrage the American people as much as possible, Roosevelt needed the first overt attack by Japan to be as bloody as possible, appearing as a sneak attack much as the Japanese had done to the Russians. From that moment up until the attack on Pearl Harbor itself, Roosevelt and his associates made sure that the commanders in Hawaii, General Short and Admiral Kimmel, were kept in the dark as much as possible about the location of the Japanese fleet and it's intentions, then later scapegoated for the attack. (Congress recently exonerated both Short and Kimmel, posthumously restoring them to their former ranks).

But as the Army board had concluded at the time, and subsequent de-classified documents confirmed, Washington DC knew the attack was coming, knew exactly where the Japanese fleet was, and knew where it was headed.
On November 29th, Secretary of State Hull showed United Press reporter Joe Leib a message with the time and place of the attack, and the New York Times in it's special 12/8/41 Pearl Harbor edition, on page 13, reported that the time and place of the attack had been known in advance!

The much repeated claim that the Japanese fleet maintained radio silence on it's way to Hawaii was a lie. Among other intercepts still held in the Archives of the NSA is the UNCODED message sent by the Japanese tanker Shirya stating, "proceeding to a position 30.00 N, 154.20 E. Expect to arrive at that point on 3 December." (near HI)

Falstaff · Aug 13, 2005, 04:39 PM

I personally dont use the world JAPS in any polite conversation, and after living there for six years I have a deep respect for the culture of Japan, and of course for many acquaintences I have made. But I have met and worked with some Japanese that were old enough to remember Hirohito's broadcast at the end of hostilties and I can confirm that they were shocked and perhaps years of expousre to western ideas have given many of them a different perspective on the Atomic Bomb Blast, some have even blamed the Emperor for the entire war, as he was the supreme and spiritual leader for the whole country, they believe the buck stops there...and he was never punished. The fact that he lived his life in luxury after the war and even published books and shook hands with presidents and his progeny continue to enjoy emperial luxury is emblematic of the type of culture that Japan was and is now.