Water Cooling question

Logla · Apr 4, 2004, 11:15 AM

I finally got my water cooling installed this weekend and its working nicely but I'm concerned about the temps I'm getting.
They arent a lot different from my CoolerMaster Heatpipe HSF just one or two degrees lower but what normally happens is the CPU starts off at 29d and then over the course of about 30mins eventually rises to 35c. So I start doing some benching and the temps go to about 44c.
But heres the worry - they dont cool down after the benchies are finished. I might get a 2c drop but thats it.

I have my rad mounted on the outside of the case and the fan is on the inside sucking air through the rad.

Is this normal and if not what am I doing wrong?

~~Sourcer_2002~~ · Apr 4, 2004, 11:32 AM

I had this problem and my issue was that i didnt have the Waterblock on the core ... of on it enough.

Logla · Apr 4, 2004, 12:37 PM

Mines on fine - P4 so the spreader takes the load - and its on securly. I made sure the spings were compressed enough so I dont think its that. I've added a couple of exhaust fans to the case to see if this makes any difference as I think the warm air being pulled off the rad into the case is causing everything else to stay warm. The res for example is mounted at the bottom of the case instead of outside.

Logla · Apr 4, 2004, 02:03 PM

I seem to be having big probs here. I cant get the cpu past 3.6 now. I had gotten it to over3.8 on friday and that was on my HSF , no water in site.
I noticed that all the pipes seem to be about the same temp and I would expect the pipe coming from the rad to be a bit cooler. The Rad doesn't feel warm at all but with the system powered off it is a bit warm at the bottom but not at the top.

I have a bleed washer on the top of the rad and water comes out if I open it so I'm assuming there is no air trapped in the system.

please someone make a suggestion as this is starting to look like I've wasted an awfull lot of money.

@/2ct!< · Apr 4, 2004, 02:10 PM

Refresh my memory, what watercooling components do you have?

free_refil · Apr 4, 2004, 02:12 PM

Wow, it sounds like you're having a pretty bad experience with water. I can think of a few things for you to try, but my first question is, did you check to see that the pump is pushing water through the system? I would get a pale of some sort and unhook a hose and see if when the pump turns on it squirts the water out. The fact that the lines feel the same temp, and that the temp's go up and not back down, makes it sound as if the system is circulating the water.

scobywhru · Apr 4, 2004, 04:35 PM

You might not be getting enough air through the radiator, and temperature in the system won't be much different from pipe to pipe unless you are using peltiers and have a massive radiator, otherwise its not much difference. I would suggest making sure that all the fans are pushing in and pulling out about the same amount of air so you don't cause some of them to choke, you also might not have a good seal on the radiator from teh fan and air is getting out around the fan, it would have to be a massive hole but I am just throwing out ideas

If you are using a Pump Relay switch so your pump turns on and off with your system try just pluging it into the wall and run it constantly and see if that helps, some times a wire can come lose on those things and they won't click over 100% of the time, to start the pump

Driver 7 · Apr 4, 2004, 05:12 PM

I don't have a fix for ya But I could suggest a couple of things.

Make sure you bleed it well. Air bubbles will restrict water flow. You will never remove all the air but you can cut it right down.
Add spacers between your fans and your rads. Best tip you will ever get for h20. I took the center off fan's that I was not using that were the same size as my rad fans to create distance between the rad and fan's.

Scooby is good for h20 advice as well.

As far as your prob goes. If you haven't checked the basic stuff yet check for kinks in your lines and also make sure your flow order starts with your pump>to Water block or blocks>and then to the rad.

Not Pump> Radiator> and then water blocks or you will be sending warm water to your pump.

What kit are you using and are you using a reservoir or a T Line?

Logla · Apr 4, 2004, 06:16 PM

thanks for the responses guys.

Heres my setup

DD RBX w #5 nozzle
DD Z-Chip lock for intel 875
DD Radeon block

Eheim 1250 pump
Innovatek tank-o-matic rad
Thermochil 120.1 rad
all hooked together with thermochill clearflex tubing and attached to the chips with AS5

The pump is definatley pumping as I can see this through the res, one thing I'm worried about though is how much its pumping. When I added the UV dye after filling, it seemed to take at least 5 seconds to pump through back to the res. I was under the impression that this would only take about 2 seconds. As far as I can tell, there are no kinks in the tubing. Although the way I have setup is : res - pump - rad - cpu - n/b - gpu - res. I also noticed that the temps have started to drop by a couple of degrees after bootup, but in no way is this machine stable anymore. I am seriously considering going back to the air cooling.

Driver 7 - how much of a difference would it make pumping water to the rad than the blocks and why? I got my adice from what I would call a reputable source

This is really, really anoying. I cant even get the p4 to 3.6 now at the same voltages I could with the HSF.

El Kapitano · Apr 4, 2004, 06:33 PM

If you pump water to the rad then to the blocks the water has chance to lose any heat it's picked up from the pump body..at least that's the way I look at it. BTW you should have a lot better flow than you mentioned my rigs similarish and it takes less than a second to flow round the circuit. Have you cleared the rad of air? Are you using water wetter or similar?

free_refil · Apr 4, 2004, 06:58 PM

Could you post some pics of the inside of your rig?

Driver 7 · Apr 4, 2004, 07:30 PM

The difference would be after it left your radiator all nice and cool it would then go to your cpu waterblock and then your gpu waterblock (or which ever order you have em set up) and the the warm water leaving the last water block would be heading straight for your pump. That is not good for the pump. You wanna run cooled water fromthe rad through your pump and then the pump can distribute the cool water.

are you using a T line or are you flowing from 1 waterblock to the 2nd waterblock?

scobywhru · Apr 4, 2004, 11:00 PM

well how restrictive is that waterblock, thats where the problem may be, the RBX is not a high flow block, like the maze series so that may be a problem

EDIT: it looks like the #5 is the most restrictive of the nozzles so you might want to try #2

@/2ct!< · Apr 4, 2004, 11:36 PM

Wcing your cpu will get you better results, but not necessarily if you cool NB & GPU as well. These two blocks dont necessarily add too much heat, especially NB, but may provide flow resistance, much like you described low flow rates. If nothing else seems to work, (Try a fan shroud, fan might be too close to rad and not getting enough air) It would either mean getting an even more powerful pump/additional pump, $$$$

or not use one of your blocks/ change RBX nozzle :? . Either wayl, I hope your WCing experience improves.

@/2ct!< · Apr 4, 2004, 11:38 PM

PS you have any digipics, so we could maybe "see" any problems?

Logla · Apr 5, 2004, 01:33 AM

ok I got to go to work now but I'll try to post some pics later (I have the feeling I'm going to get slated for the mess

)

It may well be the nozzle so I think this might be the first to go, its just going to be a real pain having to drain the system again.

Logla · Apr 5, 2004, 02:34 AM

right heres a pic

with regard to the cable ties. The one on the right looks like its tugging on the outlet from the RBX but its not, trust me on this. it only looks like this in the picture. I have double checked all the tubing and there are no kinks. The cable ties are actually quite loose and they are only helping to route the tubing. It makes no difference to the temps if they are on or not.

I noticed that the CPU has risen 2c whilst typing this and is currently sitting at 34c. The machine is not overclocked atm and is sitting at 3GHz. I'm really starting to think this is the RBX as the N/B temp is 26c and doesnt' seem to move that much.

Heres another pic showing the flow path. You can't see where the pipe from the cpu goes to the n/b as its behind itself.

El Kapitano · Apr 5, 2004, 04:20 AM

Nicely done, you've fit that lot in well. Looks good.

scobywhru · Apr 5, 2004, 04:20 AM

A Cople of Suggestions,
1, turn the Radiator so the outlet and inlet are at the top, i figure the air bubbles will have a better chance of being pulled out and into the reservoir

2, Place the Resevoir as the highest point in the cooling loop so eventually all the air will get in there

3, Move the Y farther back use it to split the flow between the NB block and the Video block, help reduce the pressure they impose on the flow

[EDIT] You also might want to make sure the radiator has an air tight fight to the fan and consider adding a fan to the other side if you can't get enough airflow through, but a tight seal helps along with plenty of room to breath, but it looks like a nice setup. The tank-o-matics hold alot of water, and I like the way they look on the backs of cases, that way you know if there is any problems with the water level. I like the DD Bay Resevoirs the most though, especially with a nice backlight.

blown503 · Apr 5, 2004, 04:49 AM

Turn your rad so it works like a car. They have been using this method for years, because it works. push the water in from the bottom and all the air will escape in the top hose. My setup has 0 air in the line. If there is air in the line it usally makes noise of some sort. My setup is a DD maze 3 and my water sets on top of my case and I have 2 gallons of it. At 69 deg. F ambient temp my my amd 2600 is running 13.5 x 178 and is 87 deg. F under full load.

Logla · Apr 5, 2004, 05:53 AM

I think I might have found the cause of the problem. The fan. I nipped out and got a cheapo 120mm fan from PC world. Its noisy but its pushing a lot more air than the one I got with the kit. I'll have to investigate this a bit more but I think this might be the cause.

EDIT: I've also noticed a slight turbulance/whirlpool effect coming from the n/b which dissapears for a few minutes if I gently pinch the tube.

I also notice that the cpu temps are still rising although not as fast as normal. and the n/b temp has dropped 2c by adding the extra fan. So it could well be the nozzle on the cpu.

Logla · Apr 5, 2004, 09:14 AM

Further update - and this has me perplexed. I lifted the res out of the case to add a little more water - I noticed that I had a bit more room so there must still be air trapped somewhere - I found the bottom of the res to have a sort of grey dust at the bottom. I didn't think I would have any dust in as I gave everything a good clean first. I suppose its better off in the res than anywhere else but its got me wondering if this could be causing problems as well.

@/2ct!< · Apr 5, 2004, 06:29 PM

With that much water, your temps will probably continue to rise until it reaches equilibrium between heat absorbed and dissipated, so thats why your temps rise over time; the water cools when nothings on. Air could be trapped in your radiator cause its upside down, thats the worst orientation it could be as the air is probably stuck at the top of the rad and does not move out with pumping. As scooby said, try and find a way to tilt your res so you can have the opening at highest point in the system and bleed until all air is out and cap it off with more than enough water to make sure no air gets back in. You should rotate the res and rad at least until it is completely bled, at which time it would not matter as much re the orientations.

blown503 · Apr 6, 2004, 12:43 AM

you want your fans to draw air through the radiator and not push or blow air through, because its alot more efficient. Also if you push the water in the radiator from the bottom (and letting it escape at the top of the radiator) the air has no choice but to bleed itself from the gravity holding the water level and consuming all the space in the lines.

Driver 7 · Apr 6, 2004, 10:31 AM

Having a res is the greatest solution for air. If you see bubbles in your res dont worry. they should stay in there. If you can have the entry point at the top and the exit at the bottom of the res. That way the air will never leave the res.

Logla · Apr 8, 2004, 02:06 AM

Looks like this was all down to trapped air. I have filled the res to the point where there is absolutley no air in it and over time its gathering bubbles so the air is slowly working its way out.
The temps now rise and fall like I had expected and all looks well again. The AS5 seems to be bedding in as well which I think is helping.

Although I'm not getting the kind of overclocks I had expected, I think this is more to do with the chip than the cooling.

Thanks for all your suggestions.

free_refil · Apr 8, 2004, 09:31 AM

Hey Logla, don't be afraid to raise those voltages! I ran an XP 2500+ at 3200+ spec's with 1.85V on the chip and 2.8V on the RAM!

Logla · Apr 8, 2004, 10:07 AM

No way will I go over 1.7 just yet. Its a northwood and I dont want to kill this one.

@1.7 I have been able to get benchmarks @3.95GHz but I dont think its stable. Still - looks like the H20 is doing its job properly now. I have the res completley full of water now as well. This is a completely sealed, air free system now and the temps just keep coming down