Is it possible to do this?

klerg

I have an Audigy 2 ZS and a Live! Value card. I read you can have CL drivers & KX drivers at the same time, granted, you install CL drivers first, is that right? Now, let's say i install CL drivers for the Audigy 2 ZS & KX drivers for the Live! Value. My question is, can i apply effects from KX drivers to the MIDI synth of the Audigy 2 ZS? Would i have to link them via the KX DSP? Or do i have to physically hook them up first?

Maddogg6

you have to hook them up physically... its best to use SPDIF but analog could work too.

But...
for maximum MIDI synth effects - use kX for the A2 - and CL drivers for the Live..
with kX and A2 - you have 4 extra MIDI send effects (CC#16,17,18,19) - with a custim DSP - those effects can be just about anything - I like using a couple delay lines and a phaser. Plus I have an open one for expansion...

The live - using a 10K1 DSP chip - can only do 2 effect sends in MIDI - #91 & 93 (Reverb and chorus) - even with kX this is true... but the A2 (10K2 DSP chip) has that plus 4 more.

possibly - this way, you wont need to connect them.. ??

klerg

Why SPDIF over Analog? What SPDIF cable/cord would i need? What about analog? Is the "Digital Out" (yellow) port on both cards SPDIF?

If that's the case, you're right. But, Kx drivers still have problems with soundfonts (i.e. 32 mb limit) Although, i'm not sure if that's still an issue with Audigy 2 cards....

Maddogg6

Digital is inherantly 'noise free' - in that, transmitting a SPDIF signal can't pick up noise like analog can - but yes, you can use the analog input/output - SPDIF is just more convenient.

SPDIF uses a single patch cable, but it supposed to be video grade (typically a RCA composit video cable), - tho some people report success with good quality audio patch cables - where a cheap video one should work.

I have my live connected to my A2 with a CD SPDIF cable -and it just plugs in. no soldering - its all inside the case and hidden... your choice, my way took some care that I connected to the correct pins on the AD_EXT header of my Live card - but on the A2 - its using the CD SPDIF input... it was quite easy once I knew what pins where what on the Live AD_EXT header.

It is my understanding that CL cards suffer from the same problem - while you can load 100MB of Sf2 - only 32MB of them can be used at any single time, as they are 'dynamically loaded' - and I thought CL drivers had this as well, perhaps I am wrong on that??
Its been ages since I used CL drivers...

A possible work around if you are using them in Cubase or some other DAW is to use a VST SF2 player like SFz..??

Note - if you run 1 stereo pair from one card to another - and apply effects to that - it will apply it to the entire mix - unlike using the MIDI sends - where you apply any of the 4 effects to a single MIDI channel if you like. It allows 4 additional 'discrete' MIDI send effects - but once mixed and sent to the other card - independence is lost and effects will be applied to what ever is on that output from the other card.

klerg

Like the "Digital CD Cable" that came with my Audigy 2 ZS, then?

So, using the "Digital CD Cable", from the CD SPDIF connector on the A2ZS to the AUD_EXT connector on the Live? How did you figure out on which pins to attach it on? On another note, how would i go about linking the A2ZS to a SW1000XG card?

Does this still apply if i were to hook up my A2ZS card to a SW1000XG?

Maddogg6

Yes

From the diagrams found here:
Soundblaster Live!, Audigy 1/2 and X-Fi* Pinouts

Yes - SPDif only carries 1 stereo pair (for all intents and purpose)
So - if you send a MIDI submix from one card to another and apply effects to that - its applied to the entire submix - well - you could possibly use as 2 mono instead of 1 stereo. But the idea still applied... think of SPDIF like a digital representation of analog - it performs no other real function (thats a lie, but for now, for your purpose Im gonna stick with that )

Note: SPDIF can also, with additional latency, and with a 'lossy' compression applied, transmit AC3 - aka 5.1 Digital Surround - but, it would likely be software doing both the compression/encoding and the decompression/decoding - the latency is usually considered un-usable - that, and the encode/decode process is far from bulletproof on the Audigy side - and I am pretty sure the SW1000 wont hardware encode/decode...so... just think of 1 SPDIF as 1 stereo or 2 mono.
Dont think the above will get you much for what you are trying to do... /disclaimer

klerg

I meant to reply to this thread long ago, but was sidetracked with personal matters. Given that kX is still lacking full soundfont support (i.e. NRPN's, SF 2.1) i need to apply/map kX effects on my Audigy 2 ZS to the MIDI synth of another SB card (with CL drivers, of course.) So, i've physically hooked up the cards, now what's the next step?? Does the second card appear somewhere in kX's DSP? If so, what am i supposed to do? As you can see, i'm getting lost

Maddogg6

You are likely submixing multiple MIDI channels of the second card to the kX card. Thus, you are effecting this sub mixed audio.

While theres a workaround - its important to not that even with kX - all 16 midi channels are submixed into a single stereo pair + mono effect sends - as seen in the kX DSP.
The second card is operating similarly. if you are sending 1 stereo pair to kX card - you simply use that audio input on the kX card (what ever one(s) you physically connected to it from the second card) - and apply kX effects to that/those audio input(s).

And I think you may be missing important info from my last post. If something there does not make sense, point it out and I will try to clarify.

Maddogg6

Opps - I can more directly answer, you apply kX effects to whatever kX cards input you hooked your second cards output to.
If you used a SPDIF cable to the CD SPDIF input on the kX card, apply effects to the CD SPDIF IN audio input in kX DSP. Its accessed in kX DSP via the PROLOG plugin, or a ProFX/SRC plugin.

klerg

Just what does 'submixing' & 'stereo pair' mean? Why do you keep bringing them up?

I started to lose you once you said this:

Are you saying that i can NOT apply different effects on EACH MIDI Channel from the kX card to the Creative card?

Ok, after i've done this, i insert CC#16-19 into my sequencer and it will apply whatever effect is on them to the MIDI synth of the SB card with CL drivers, then?

Maddogg6

Submixing - a common term used to describe how multiple audio signals are combined. A good example is a drum set - many times are submixed into the pa system - usually in a larger venue setting.

Stereo pair - describes the 2 signals (left and right) that makes up 'stereo'. And is opposed to 5.1 surround - or mono.

OK - back to the 'submixed' drum set - if they are combined to make a stereo signal - you cant efficiently/effectivly - apply any effect to say just the snare drum with out also effecting all the other drum sounds that are also submixed with the snare drum.
Once submixed - they are no longer 'discrete' - and are also no longer individually controlled (levels, effects etc..)
Essentially - yes thats is the easy answer, but should note that it means *all at the same time*. You *can* mute all other midi channals - and record as an audio track 1 or 2 (depends on how they are panned, with 1 stereo pair connecting the 2 cards) midi channels at a time and accomplish what you desire. This is a common practice similar to 'overdubbing' and 'bouncing'.

Russ

Hmm, from the above two statements, it sounds as though you have your thinking backwards ("from the kX card to the Creative card"). Using kX Synth's (and custom routing) you can apply effects to pretty much any channel individually, which I do not think is possible with the CL driver (or at least not in the same way). But once the MIDI data is audio, you cannot send it to another MIDI synth, so your above statements do not really make sense.

i.e.
If you want to use the CL driver, because you prefer it's MIDI implementation, then the MIDI data needs to be sent to the card with the CL driver, and then (the resulting audio) routed externally to the card with the kX driver to be able to add kX effects to resulting mix.

klerg

I'm still NOT sure how this relates to sending kX MIDI effects (CC16-19) to the MIDI Synth Output of another SB card...



No, No, i definitely do NOT want to convert midi into a audio track and put effects there. If that were the case, i'd have almost NO need to use kX drivers, and would stay with CL drivers. As stated above, i want to send kX MIDI effects (CC16-19) to the MIDI Synth Output of another SB card. If i need to physically hook'em up that's fine. If i can only send the kX MIDI effects to 2 MIDI channels (at a time) on the other SB card's MIDI synth, that's fine, too. BTW, does the second SB card need to support 'E-mu Enhancement' MIDI Controllers? Or, can i send them to any UN-used MIDI CC on the second card?

Ah, it's a breeze of fresh air, finally someone else responded here. How do i send the MIDI data (by this, do you mean MIDI CC16-19??) to the card with CL drivers?

How would i go about achieving this?

octave

The resonable behavior would be to say Thanks (and now, Sorry) and be the nicest in the world, generally.

Here you go, yet someone else responded

Maddogg6

This is not possible - the CL cards synths do not respond to those CC's.

How do you expect kX functions with CL driver?

The work around is to apply kX effect to the audio *from* the CL card - done by apply kX effect to that kx Cards audio input you connected to the CL cards audio output. But will affect ALL audio comming in to kX card from CL card.

Yes. But it does not, last I knew.

As you probably already noticed, the CL card synths wont respond to the same CC's as kX synths do.

Russ

It seems you are misunderstanding some things....

The effects are not "MIDI effects", they are audio effects (i.e. they process (digital) audio).

By MIDI data, I mean the output from the sequencer (i.e. MIDI messages: Note On, Note Off, CC's, etc)

To send the MIDI data to one card, you would choose it's synth or MIDI port as the output device in the sequencer.

Generally the CC messages (as it relates to these effects) only control how much of the audio from each channel is sent to an effect, and not any other aspect of the effects themselves. However, kX Automation can be used to control the kX effects themselves using CC messages, etc. To use kX Automation, you setup the mapping (i.e. which CC messages, and what they should do) in the kX Automation window, and you select kX Control as the MIDI port. This is independent of the kX Synth's.

In order to use both the CL Synth and kX effects, the only choice is what Maddogg6 has been telling you (or something similar).

klerg

But, in the MIDI Implementation Chart of the Audigy card, it says the 'Emu Enhancement' controllers (CC21-24) are "Undefined." I believe they're supposed to be used for SF 2.1 modulators, though. Is there some way to route kX CC16-19 effects to CL drivers CC21-24 of another card??



For the sake of compatiblity, i thought kX drivers had Audigy's CC21-24 'E-mu Enhancement' assigned to the same CC numbers. Apparently, that's NOT the case.


So, i would do this by connecting the 2 cards (as mentioned before), apply effects to CD SPDIF IN inside kX DSP via the PROLOG plugin, or a ProFX/SRC plugin. Here's where i'm stuck. Where's the CD SPDIF IN on the kX DSP? And how does what you said about sending the kX effects to 2 MIDI CH. at one time on the 2nd card figure into all of this?



What does not? kX drivers? I meant the SB card w/CL drivers.

Actually, i haven't had the time (not to mention know-how) to try this myself, yet. Hopefully, more folks will read this thread and try it themselves.

Then how come they can be assigned to MIDI CCs? And how to they output to kX MIDI Synths?

Russ

Again you have it backwards, effects do not output to a synth, the synth outputs audio to the effects. The effects are not part of the synth.

CC's are just controls (i.e. sliders) that can be used for anything, provided that some program is listening for these messages, and allows you to control something with them (this is the same for all MIDI messages really).

i.e. (with kX) CC91 controls how much of the synth's audio (from each channel) is sent to Fx Send C (which is often used for Reverb, but can be used for anything since the effects are external (it is really just a level control)). Additionally, some program could intercept this message and use it for a completely different purpose. kX Automation works similarly, it listens for the MIDI messages that you tell it to, and can be mapped to control some aspect of a kX plugin (completely separate from the kX Synth's).

Maddogg6

The MIDI implementation from CREATIVE LABS - is only true with CL drivers.
Notice the CL drivers make no mention of CC16-19 as GP effect sends.

kX has its own midi implementation chart, and while there are vast similarities, the emu enhancements are not one. kX does not support them, tho some 'work arounds' are likely possible to accomplish similar modulations with kX (and some midi 'tricks') - albeit considered 'hackish'.

For the record, and I made this mistake myself as well... kX claims SF 2.01 compatibility - not SF 2.1 - SF 2.1 - if I am not mistaken, adds the CC21-24 modulator 'EMU Enhancement'

No, not possible. CL drivers will not respond to those CC's (#16-19). The driver would need to be coded to allow this. And, kX does not have the SF2.1 modulator routing scheme implemented (CC#21-24). This is also a driver code limitation (and SF spec limitation).

kX Ability to have the extra audio routing (CC16-19 'General Purpose Audio Effect Sends') is in addition to any SF spec, All SF2 spec's allows for only 4 possible audio outs (Main Left, Main Right, Reverb Send and Chorus Send)
This is evident in Veinna when editing a SF2 file - you will only see Reverb, Chorus and Pan - that accounts for 4 mono audio outputs - Left, Right (volume CC#7 and panning CC#10 are the 'Main level' controls), Reverb Send (CC91) and Chorus Send(CC93).