The debate religion thread!

LordLink

I had to call your atheism belief something and maybe my choice of the word faith was not optimal but excuse my limited english vocabulary

Yeah we're no longer in the Dark Ages but the more reasonable solutions you say don't give convincing answers either: take for example the creation of Universe, atheists say it's by chance but the problem is that it's not a single chance hit but rather a succession of very precise phenomenals.

I don't remember who said that the probability that the creation of Univers came by chance is like the probability that you put all the pieces used for the making of a Boeing 747 plane in a field then a tornado pass on that field and take all the pieces and give in the end an intact well manufactured Boeing 747

The most obvious example again is the soul: with all the scientifical advances, they still don't know what soul is. What is soul? Why even if we keep the organs working people die? Why every living thing have to die in a precise cycle?

Every scientist know that if you leave everything to chance you will never get anywhere. How can something comming fully by chance have so much precise rules and guidelines, so much creatures obeying very strict rules sometimes the optimal (bees, ants...)???

Thanks a lot Mr. cozumel, that's exactly the point: you don't have to be Jew, Christian or Muslim to be good as it's a personal choice and all the result can only be seen after death. On the other hand you don't have to take a position on a religion just by reading some newspaper & books or watching tv.

OmegaRED

It's scientists who work hard to give us the best understanding of how the Universe began, not Atheists. They come up with theories and then prove them over and over again while religion makes one claim and never proves it.

I've heard this "Ultimate 747 Gambit" before in The God Delusion, here's what wikipedia has to say about it:


There is no proof that a soul even exists, it's something made up by religions. I'm not sure I understand the next questions. People are kept on life support long after their brains have ceased functioning and only machines kept them alive. Which cycle would that be?

LordLink

Yeah that's for sure: that's scientists work who is used by most atheists to back their theories but the fact is that religions "claims" are more and more proved by scientists.

Here's a 2 small documentaries explaining this more throughly
The Creation Of The Universe

The Fact Of Creation part 1
The Fact Of Creation part 2
The Fact Of Creation part 3

OmegaRED

Do you even look at the stuff you're posting? Those links are a joke, a kid with a basic understanding of grade school science could debunk them. Please, if you wish to get respectful responses don't waste time posting Creationist videos which have absolutely no scientific content in them.

What you are talking about is "irreducible complexity", an argument by Intelligent Design proponents and it's been thoroughly destroyed in the American courts when they had evolution vs creationism on trial in 2005.

Let me sum up the faulty logic you and other creationists use:

Step 1: This [animal or plant] is far too complex to have evolved.
Step 2: It must have been created by God.
Step 3: [Allah, God, Yahweh] must have done it.

No where in that logic is there any reason to suspect God created something and that it is your God who did it. The first vid you posted was Muslim, and claims Allah created the Universe. I could post a ton of vids saying the same thing using the same faulty logic claiming the Christian God did it. Both base their claims on scripture and complete ignorance of how evolution works.

OmegaRED

Link, answer me this: If everything which has a design has a designer then who created the Creator? Specifically, who made Allah?

This is fundamentally why all Creationist theories fall apart.

cozumel

I don't believe there is any scientific theory that can show where the elements came from to create the big bang and life. One minute it wasn't and then it was. That is where the science always falls apart lol.

Any answers or links Omega?

LordLink

That's a good one: if you create something that was not there before then the question is not "who created you?" the real question is "how you created it?"

If there was more than one Creator then nothing would last long because there will be conflicts, there's one and only Creator which is God.
When you say "design" it's the Designer who created the concept of design thus the Creator cannot be compared to the design He created.

Give just one example of something that evolved from something else backed by scientific research or archeological fossiles: guess what nothing. Every living thing on earth was and still is exacly the way it was created in the begining.

You'll tell me "Darwin's Theory", yeah I had this too in the natural sciences course in school (yeah even if I'm in a muslim country) and we was teached as if it was true but later I realised it was not.
The Collapse Of Darwinism And The Fact Of Creation

In Arabic, Allah means literally the one God. It is pretty easy to understand how different languages give the same thing different names. Is it that unusual to hear Muslims call God another name, like "Allah", while you call him God or Lord?

When Arabs call Allah in prayer they say: “Ya Allah” or “Allahoma”. Aren't these words familiar to you? “Alleluia” and “Elohim” are the words used to call Allah in the Bible. In Hebrew, the suffix im means many. So Elohim literally means many Allah(s). This is a known way to express dignity and respect to almighty Allah by calling Him pleural. This phenomenon is known in Hebrew, Arabic, English and other languages. In Quran, the same pattern is seen many times. For example, God says in the holy Quran:

[ We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). ]15:9.

In the English translation of the Bible, you read, "Let us make man in our image”-Genesis 1:26-KJV.

The word Allah is used in all Arabic translations of the Bible. It was used in some English translations of the Bible like the original "Scofield Reference Bible"-reference: what is his name? by Deedat. In the New Testament, Jesus is believed to cry before his death "ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” Eloi is the exact Arabic word "Elahi" which comes from the same root as Allah.

I have no doubt that the word "Allah" is the oldest known name man called God with. For those who choose to ignore this fact and transgress, Muslims have nothing to offer. Allah says in the holy Quran:

[If any, after this, invent a lie and attribute it to Allah, they are indeed unjust wrong-doers.] 3:94

For Muslims, Allah is perfect. He has no partners. We worship Him and Him alone. Our faith is summarized in the holy Quran:

[Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.] 112:1-4

Mousey

Right all this reading is really doing my head in, i'm gonna break it down by presenting my arguable opinion in as fewer words as possible..

(imo) Religion is BS.

Zelig

Just one example: Quick evolution leads to quiet crickets

If anyone was motivated, they could easily find thousands...

I'm not going to watch an hour of that, the minutes of annoying music and drivel about "perfect design" was bad enough. I watched over six minutes of the movie without a single piece of evidence being presented, and am not going to watch more.

I stopped watching when they started talking about the origin of life. The theory of evolution does NOT deal with the origin of life, that belongs in a separate argument completely.

LordLink

Are you sure this is what you want to call evolution? Are you sure the mutant cricket is a new specie? In the article the mutant cricket can't attract female so he's condemned not to reproduce
So basicly if we take your example as true evolution then white humans are the evolution of black humans or vice versa because there's between blacks and white some minor changes but they're all in the same DNA so it's surely adaptive evolution already programmed in the DNA. Isn't it?

The evolution I want examples for is the kind when there's something species not perfect then step by step evoluting to perfection
For example "Bees" what was the sequence of imperfect species that evolved to the perfect result of Bees

OmegaRED

It's a great question and I don't know the answer. Here's one interesting explanation.

from Cosmic Evidence by Victor Stenger:

OmegaRED

What does any of that mean? I asked who or what created God.

The theory of evolution is the most scientifically proven theory in the history of mankind...and you can't find a single example. Don't waste my time.

If you rely on Youtube for your scientific knowledge then you'll believe anything.

This is not really true. Islam and Christianity are both very similar to polytheisms which they despise. For example, Muslims worship Muhammad and various angels like Gabriel not just Allah.

LordLink

The problem with this theory is that Hydrogen is consumed non stop and scientists now know how much Hydrogen in the Sun (and stars) so they know aprox. when it's going to end (all Hydrogen converted to Helium). If it was there eternaly then how come it's going to end?

In the modern universe almost all new helium is created as a result of the nuclear fusion of hydrogen in stars.



I think you're basing your argumentations on science not some old theories now refuted.

OmegaRED

No one said the Sun is eternal, it was formed at some point and will die out. I think you are confusing the creationist theory that the sun is only a few thousand years old thus proving the Bible creation story.

Yea, that sounds about right, religious explanations have all been refuted whereas science does not declare it has the truth, it searches for it and offers the most reasonable explanation.

LordLink

But there's always missing pieces. I can't call it scientific if there's place for a lot of suppositions.

I'm just making you life easier instead of giving you download links
Please debate the content of the vids not the site they're hosted on.

From where did you came with something like this? ohh let me guess, it's our friend Ibn Warraq isn't it?
THIS IS ALL FALSE. We didn't worship Mohamed PBOH, He's was a prophet, he delivered his message and he died. We believe in angels but no one is worshiping any of them. Muslims worship the one and only God.

Excuse me the expression but this is what I call complex ignorance: You don't know about Islam and you don't know that you don't know about it.

LordLink

If universe is eternal then how come things like stars will come to an end? Everything that's gonna end had a beginning. That's the rule.


I don't know about the Bible but there's nothing in Quran stating that the sun is a 1000 years, nothing.

And actually all the reasonable explanations science has offered converge exactly with what's written in Quran.

OmegaRED