The debate religion thread!

Sandok

How does that make me intelligent? I believe in something that doesn't exist... I'm sorry, nowhere is that qualified as "intelligent"

OmegaRED

What matters is that no one knows anything about God, many claim they do but they are full of it.

I'd just google a review of it or go to a bookstore and find his book or The Portable Atheist (it's at the end of the book) because there's too much to summarize. He basically tears apart every aspect of the Koran with some excellent arguments.

Here's what's in the book I have:
IBN WARRAQ,The Koran pg 384
The Totalitarian Nature of Islam pg 445

Maddogg6

Am I the only one who sees the above 2 statements as a contradiction?

LordLink

You didn't understand me. I said you are interligent because you don't believe in a false god

I doubt I'll find that in the bookstore (I'm in a non english speaking country) but I googled as you advised and found some interesting points:

1- A reviewer wrote that in "Why I am not a Muslim" you will learn that what makes Islam stand apart from the other religions, is that the founder, Muhamad encouraged violence in the name of Islam and was personally responsible for killing a lot of "infidels". In 627 A.D. Mohammed attacked the Jewish tribe of Qurayza. The Jews were defeated in the fight and in one place alone some 800 Jewish prisoners were beheaded in cold blood. One Jew escaped death by accepting Islam. In 629 A.D. after the battle of Khaybar all the Jews were put to the sword. So much for the lie of Islam's tolerance to the Jews.

That's blatently false and giving only part of the story to make an argument for the writer. The fact is that before this war on Khaybar and Mekka's tribe Kuraysh there was a peace treaty between muslims in Medina and Mekka's tribe Quraysh and Khaybar. Quraysh broke the treaty after 10 years of peace and Khaybar went on the side of Quraysh
There was 2 tribes in Khaybar: The khaybar tribe and Banu Nadir Tribe which had sought refuge in Khaybar after their expulsion from Medina. The Muslims beheaded all the men of Banu Nadir, taking the surviving women and children as slaves, and sparing only the lives of the Khaybar Jews. Jews continued to live in the oasis for several more years...
Source ps: I'll further investigate this story as I didn't knew they beheaded Bani Nadir tribe

2-The Quran says:
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."

It's true that it's in the Quran but you have to bear in mind that some verses of the Quran are related to a certain period of time or some political situations and this is from the Attawba chapter which is one of the most controversial in Quran because it's verses came related to the time when muslims were outnumbered fighting for the existance of Islam

Here's another verse from another chapter verse [190] "And fight in the Way of Allâh those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allâh likes not the transgressors." (This Verse is the first one that was revealed in connection with Jihâd, but it was supplemented by another ).
From another chapter [90] "Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allâh willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allâh has opened no way for you against them."

Only defensive fight is allowed and that's the rule.



OK enough: the more I read about this book from reviewers the more I become sure the author is giving you what you want to hear about Islam and the only ones to find it valuable are those that don't know Quran. For muslims Quran is the word of God so the only way to try to get the concept is to read the book your self instead of some commercial books about it. And if you come to read it you'll only read the translation so you get some points but the meaning is altered by the translator.

Ask who ever you want who knows Arabic and read at least some Quran and he'll tell you that no human can write like that even if it's the most genious writer.

Sorry for the lenghty post but there's too much false, vicious and destructive standpoints in that book that I...

I'm sure now I'll never find it in a bookstore here

Maddogg6

And isnt this another contridiction... ???
1) you say - you read only *parts* enough to draw a conclusion based on excerpts found in reviews...
2) but then you say to read the whole Quran to truly understand muslim faith...


Just replace 'commercial books' with 'reviews' - and its a direct contrdiction as I see it...

Also - where would I get a 'free' quran to read - so, my point - if I have to pay for a copy - is that not also 'some commercial books' ... ?

LordLink

You see the contradiction because it's only Islam that is considering Judaism and Christianity as Heavenly as in Quran (I can give you examples if you want)

Muslims believe in all the prophets including Jesus (Issa), Isaac, Jacob, Moïs, Abraham...
Christians and Jews don't believe Mohamed is a prophet and if he's not a prophet then Islam is not from God so not Heavenly

Maddogg6

Yes please give examples - the above doesn't make any sense to me...

LordLink

on 1) the credibility of a book comes from the informations inside and if even part of these informations are false and used as arguments to prove something then I can IMO question its credibility

on 2) I'm sorry if I pushed the button too much. You can have an idea by just reading just part of it but you have to know that tere's verses with clear meanings and others with controversial meanings.

I'm sure there's free Quran sites on the internet ... googling ... yep here's a link with full english version to download

Usualy copies of Quran in bookstores are very cheap (at least in my country) not even the publishing price

LordLink

Chapter Aal Imran [3] It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'ân) to you (Muhammad (peace be upon him)) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel).

Chapter Al maida [46] And in their footsteps, We sent 'Isâ (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), confirming the Taurât (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurât (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqûn (the pious - see V.2:2).

The powers of Jesus as described in Quran
Chapter Al maida [110] (Remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection). "O 'Isâ (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Remember My Favor to you and to your mother when I supported you with Rûh-ul-Qudus (Jibrîl (Gabriel)) so that you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and when I taught you writing, Al-Hikmah (the power of understanding), the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel); and when you made out of the clay a figure like that of a bird, by My Permission, and you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My Permission, and you healed those born blind, and the lepers by My Permission, and when you brought forth the dead by My Permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from you (when they resolved to kill you) as you came unto them with clear proofs, and the disbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.' "

Chapter Al maida [116] And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Isâ (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner-self though I do not know what is in Yours; truly, You, only You, are the All-Knower of all that is hidden (and unseen).

...

LordLink

oops forgot that important one
Chapter Baqara [285] The Messenger (Muhammad (peace be upon him)) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allâh, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. They say, "We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers" - and they say, "We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your Forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all)."

OmegaRED

Lucky for you I found Portable Atheist online in audiobook, the Ibn Warraq excerpts are of course included.

The Portable Atheist (Hitchens) [NF] Torrent - btjunkie


This is addressed by Warraq several times and he proves that the Quran is not the word of God and that there are many different versions of the Quran.

Are you being serious? Sure, if I find an arabic speaker who happens not to be Islamic then maybe I'll get a genuine opinion otherwise they'll tell me the Quran is the word of God just like you're telling us.

What a shame, for by the sounds of it if there's one person who really needs to read his book it would be you. At least you can download the audiobook but somehow I doubt you will.

Maddogg6

well - isnt context *also* very important...
Consider: (its a humorous example - use '+++' as a pause in speaking as it completely changes the meaning in what is said)

'Whats this thing called +++ love'
VS
'Whats this thing called love'

Ok its out there - I admit - but it perfectly illustrates 'context' - and would you agree that reading only 'parts' of *anything* -- will *likely* leave out 'context'?

(I'll have to re-read those passages - as I am not really getting for it that muslims have a different idea of god than the christians. - Or at least the way I am interpreting them anyway - which btw - who had translated these passage to english? It obviously wasnt written in english - correct?)

And - am I correct in assuming you are muslim?
or was that part of the direct quote?

edit:
Does this mean the first ones were not relavant...??
/edit

Maddogg6

Also... Something I notice.... on the news - they have shown Iraqi's talking - and of course I don't understand a word - except one - they will clearly say the name 'Bush' - which leads me to believe that proper names aren't translated..

But yet... those passages show quite a few 'translated' proper names... why is this?
It leads me to beleive that the translations to english are not genuine.
Does that make sense?

so - for the same reason you **edited** your assertion about god and jesus mentioned in the quran - seem to be a disingenuous translation...

And it would make sense that if there are multiple version of the quran - those passage become moot when talking about the differences in views of god between chritians and muslims...

in other words - you have asserted that all 3 religions are based on mohamad - and no one seem to dispute that - but you seem to be pointing out that - because jesus and mary are mentioned in the quran - we can all live in peace together (which as we see first hand here - isnt the case if you take a literal translation of any holy scripture... )

LordLink

"many different versions of the Quran" -> false: there's many reading ways of Quran but only one version

as I said before if you want a genuine opinion get it yourself and if you don't want to make the effort then stay just like you are. God wants diversity.

Chapter Nahl [93] And had Allâh willed, He could have made you (all) one nation, but He sends astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. But you shall certainly be called to account for what you used to do.

Believe me I don't need to hear that book but I will just to know how much false arguments/allegations he's using because I only read reviews but "for by the sounds of it" this Ibn Warraq never was muslim or/and wanted just to disturb the unstable frame that Islam already stands on with recent allegations of encouraging terrorism.


Besides how can you say it's valuable book if you're not even sure neither of the informations in it nor the identity of the author

I'm quoting a reviewer here "It is a pity that people who wish to learn about islam do not go to the source of the matter and read the Quran itself. After all, surely a book that muslims claim to be a miracle, and a sign to those who believe in god, should be worth a read right?"

OmegaRED

Ok here's what I'm gonna do...and I'm not doing it ever again

As my Atheist good deed for the day I'm scanning the entire chapter of that book and will post it in a few minutes (old scanner is kinda slow). That's how much I care!

ps. also there's a snowstorm and I can't go anywhere tonight

LordLink

Perfect readings much faster that hearing

pfff I'm starting to feel like the chinese monks when they say things like "Never let hatred darken the primary reason of your heart"

LordLink

Bush is a name that doesn't exist in arabic, Jesus and Mary have equivalents in arabic. Why? Because Jesus and Mary were not speaking english or latin (must see Kevin Costner's The Passion of the Christ lol) and those names are latin translations of the real names that are (in Quran and of course arabic) Isâ and Maryam

There's a lot more verses about Judaism and Christianity (there's more than 6000 verses in Quran) I can give you just hints and sorry again for the confusion
The three religions are not based on Muhamed but what came in Quran is believing the other 2 books before him but it's said they were changed and the fact is that it's the Bible that got many versions not the Quran

I was copy/pasting that's why you saw the peace upon him message and yes I'm a muslim and no all verses are relevant but I found it interesting because it said "We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers (prophets)"

Maddogg6

1) Those passages - dont really seem to extinguish my assertion that you contradicted yourself.
2) Which translation are you going by?
Re as found in your link - and what I believe Omega referred to as 'versions' of the quran
I am the same - a different translation = a different version.

3) How could extremists muslims *possibly* interpret... 'Kill infidels and receive XXX virgins in heaven after I read this..
ps I used sarcasm before - this clearly, to me, would incite violence.
As I interpret - its ok to annihilate non-believers....
Please tell my why I should continue reading the quran?

OmegaRED

First 20 or so pages ...they're labeled 'page1-2 , page20-21' etc

OmegaRED

page 7-8