Religion and Relationships

CDsDontBurn

Note: this can be moved to OT if required

so, my current gf and i have been together for a little over a month and have known each other for a little over a year. we've many things in common and have a great time together all the time. except for one thing, and that's religion.

i'm by no means a religious person whatsoever, and she's highly religious. she attends church 3 times a week and she also has a bible study group she meets with once a week as well. i've already told her that i respect her for that and all, and i'm perfectly fine with all that she does so long as she doesn't try and convert me or anything.

now the question is, have any of you ever seen such a relationship such as mine where it worked out? if so, what happened? did it work out or did it fail? if it failed, was the relationship's failure due to the whole religious aspect of it? if it wasn't for the religious aspect, then what caused it to fail?

i'm just curious with this as this would be my first time in such a relationship.

Zelig

I was in a similar relationship, where we basically didn't talk about religion.

It ended for unrelated reasons (I moved, and had no real interest in continuing it).

We're still friends, but I think I'd have trouble staying in a relationship with a religious person over the long term. Conversely, a religious person would probably find it difficult to stay with me for a prolonged period of time.

Vikingod

Depends on what you mean by "worked out". Do you plan on marrying the girl?

If not, it's all for fun, and I think you can have that particular brand of fun while not paying attention to the religion issue. You're a young guy, right? So don't get so serious about it and have a good time.

If this is a permanent committment, I would probably say no. You cant expect to be able to ignore, and certainly not change, someones core beliefs. This is especially true where religion is the case. Hell, it can be difficult enough when the two of you don't like the same movies/music/books/politics.

OmegaRED

Since you haven't specified your religious beliefs I'll assume the worst (atheist) for the sake of argument. The truth is that it shouldn't be a problem unless you make it a problem; religion doesn't become an issue in a relationship until children are involved then you've got to decide what kind of religious upbringing you want for the kids. Ditto with marriage; if it bothers you to be married in a church you'll have to deal with that. This girl knows your beliefs and is still with you, if it doesn't bother her try and do the same.

While I haven't had to deal with this issue yet I've been wondering myself what to do should it arise and all the writings I've come across suggest there's little to worry about. Women, for the most part, don't take religion the same way as men do so she isn't going to wear you down and convert you. I would go easy on the religious discussions with her for a while but if you ever get married then feel free to debate occasionally it won't tear the marriage apart. Mostly you'll just have to learn to compromise; go to church on a Sunday for her and she can do something in return (like read a book critical of religion).

Maddogg6

First off - it all depends on *all* parties involved. Some people *may* be involved you may not realize yet.... and I assume you *are* considering either marriage or some other long term commitment together (ie - buy a house together - tho its not usually recommended to do so in most cases with out marriage)

FAMILY / CLERGY (maybe even friends??).... some 'deeply religious' parents/family may resent their child and/or child's spouse because of their differences in faith or decision to marry. It could go either way.
Ive seen some shun the 'outsider' - converting won't always gain their respect either - depends on the people involved.

Why did I include 'clergy'? Some used to go and ask their clergy for permission to so much as attend a wedding outside of their faith - some may say 'ok' some may not. Some may adhere to that decision, some may not.
Consider:
'I am crushed, my own family & friends didn't show up to our reception - I knew they wouldn't go to the wedding, but...'

Some religious types may not be vocal about a bf/gf - but when a 'marriage' is announced.... things may change....

she may even think - 'I dont care if may family disowns me' - now, but what about a family member passes away and its too late to 'fix' their relationship? - this *can* be devastating to some/many (in case of a parent) who didn't *honestly* consider these things.

Note: I doubt your presumed non-religious family would not discriminate against a religious person - thus why my references are to 'her' side of her family - from what I seen its the heavily religious ones who tend to discriminate this way.
I presume because she is heavily religious, her parents/family are as well)
But you may need to consider your family as well too... ?? Tho, you are likely already aware of their position on your relationship... you may still need to consider it if you wish to have a relationship with them as well.

Not that these things would definitively rip apart a relationship/marriage ... but it could definitely add additional strain on an institution thats already got a ~50% success rate.

If it were me - I would ask her family's permission for marriage (assuming she is close to her family - talk to the one she is closest to first maybe) this will fill you in on their point of view. Their reaction will say a lot about how you will be treated later. You may already have been clued in - did you ignore the clues?? (rhetorical Q - its easy to ignore when 'all we need is love' sounds so much better - tho, *not* always the reality)

Good luck and of course - don't assume the worse - just prepare for it and your chances of making it work will be much better.

TALK ABOUT IT FIRST - when talking marriage - too often equates to...
'Where do we live?'
'Where do we honeymoon?'

things that make almost no difference *after* the honeymoon is over. To me - marriage talk sounds more like....

'If you were forced to choose me or your family - what would you do?'

'If no one showed up to our wedding - how would you feel?'

'What do you tell your clergy when he finds out you got married outside of his church?'

'Do I need to join the church so we can be married in it? - whats involved exactly?'

'What would happen if we get married against _______ advise? - how would this affect us and our relationship?'

CDsDontBurn

I was too ambiguous with "worked out." for marrying the girl, i haven't even thought of that as we've only been together a little over a month. we do want this to be a long term, serious relationship, so marriage would likely happen down the road sometime. I'm relatively young i guess, 24 years old.

i don't plan on changing her beliefs, and i've told her the same with me. if change happens regarding religion, it would be based on her/my decision to change.

being an athiest is much better than being agnostic. an athiest doubts the presence of a higher being without there being any proof. an agnostic is one who has no belief in any religion whatsoever. and yes, i consider myself an athiest even though i grew up catholic. we don't want to make it a problem between each other either. the only thing that bothers us, is how our families will treat each other. currently, this is what she is concerned about.

we've already discussed this. and i have agreed to accompany her from time to time to church once this has all settled down between us. even if we're just living together and not actually married, i would still do this for her.

AFAIK, the only people involved right now is just her and i. since we are being serious about this, we are already talking about deeper commitments, but not buying a house together. simply just living together at our own place, an apartment or rent out a house.

she is afraid of this right now. she doesn't want to tell her family just yet about me because she afraid that she will be shunned or she will be forced to not be with me anymore due to her beliefs and my non-beliefs. although i know she will eventually tell somebody, i'm just not sure how long it will be before she does. it will however be obviously before we would move in together.

i think this would affect her more than it would affect me.

my immidiate family is also more towards the athiest side as well, again, despite them having brought me up being a catholic, things over the years changed and we stopped going to church, began questioning religion, etc. and we are now pretty much athiests here....except my mom. she's one of those "i believe in god when there's trouble" people, which IMO is wrong. my extended family however, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc., are all either catholics or christians, but they are all accepting of my decisions.

[/quote]Not that these things would definitively rip apart a relationship/marriage ... but it could definitely add additional strain on an institution thats already got a ~50% success rate.[/quote]

you never know. some things are meant to last. others, don't last at all. this is what the whole bf/gf thing is all about to see if we would last and split up before marriage happens. also, of that ~50% divorce rate, how long is the average time span before these couples become divorced? i've seen cases where people last for 20+ years and then divorce, and others lasting only a few months before they divorce. but what's the average time span?

this i will definately do.

Thanks! and my personal philosophy on life is, "expect the worst and hope for the best"

i would ask her these things as time goes on and as they become appropriate at that point in time in our relationship together.

Maddogg6

mm hmmm - and - well - you also said this too....

And frankly, imho, its a sign that the issues I brought up *could possibly* affect you in some way or another. IE.. Many guys cant stand to see their gf/wife hurting at any level.... thus 'affected'.

See above - tho I could elaborate on *possible scenarios* if you'd like...

I have heard 5-10 years - BUT...seems some states dont keep track like California (with their 'no-fault' streamlined divorce proceedings available) - and they *must* be a significant number that would affect the average. But I am speculating, and Im not sure it matters to you or not.
But keep in mind - its part of the 'guestimate' of ~50% divorce rate...
Seems impossible to have 'hard data' on this.... which I think is interesting.

See this...
Divorce Rates - Divorce Statistics Collection

Divorce rates are down per capita - but so are marriages...
Divorce Statistics, Marriage Statistics: Divorce Rates in America, Marriage

No problem - and thats not a bad philosophy... but 'preparation' is a quite a bit better than 'hope' alone.

cozumel

imo, the danger of expecting the worst is that it can become a self-fulfilling prephecy. Much better to face any obstacle as it comes on its own merits and to see how the two of you work around the ideological differences. Tis only a problem if you let it be a problem. Remembering to enjoy and cherish each others company and contrasting views on life could be one of the biggest positives in your relationship and that could be a great thing that pulls you even closer together.

OmegaRED

Just remember, Atheists have the lowest divorce rates

Honestly, if it's her family that would take umbrage over your beliefs then why even tell them? Ask yourself would it really impact your happiness to pretend to have Christian values around the family as long as you both know the truth? This is something only you can answer but that seems to be the easiest solution.

Maddogg6

While I agree with your philosophy - too many people prove that, over time (in-laws are forever remember) - they can be 'broken' unless trained specifically to avoid it psychologically. Who is?

Maybe a better question is - how long can you perform that charade.
Would you feel like 'living a lie' to those you may very well become close to also... ?? *for now* - hes right tho... but the OP seemed to indicate longer terms - why move in together if this would never be a possibility - otherwise you just be room mates - right? and when does religion affect room mates?

OmegaRED

It's not living a lie when all you have to do is pretend when the parents are around. Hell, most people do this already! Obviously this is not without pitfalls but it's the path of least resistance.

Is going to Church really all that worse than any of the other stuff guys have to do and pretend they like?

Maddogg6

Yes - the path of least immediate resistance... 'immediate' is the missing key word - but if the relationship evolves... you don't think that lie will bite them in the ass later?
Again - whats the difference between 'living together' or 'room mates'? (besides whos sleeping in what rooms/beds) - the intent of the relationship - what it would *lead* to.. I am speaking in the future tense mostly... trying to avoid future problems I have seen first hand... thats all.
Consider: - 'not only is hes without god (or what ever) hes been lying to us all along - and that heathen tricked my little girl into going along with it'
If you think thats never happened - think again.

It doesn't end with 'going to church', the real problems form when a child is raised - what faith with be bestowed upon them - parents certainly influence a childs belief system - so, which one will it be... those types of things are almost never considered *before* entering a relationship that *could* go to that stage...
Then theres dealing with family at various levels - it could be 1 time a year - it could be daily - how could I, or any one else - predict frequency. And sure - some people would have no problems with playing the charade for ever - others can get very uncomfortable with it - especially if a relationship with the in-laws becomes closer - later. Not everyone faces these things as we may think they should - and when they do - not everyone reacts in the rational way we would like/expect.

Judas

alot has already been said..

but either way, your standing on extremely thin ice.

It's pretty incredible the number of people that don't think to far beyond even sometimes a day into the future.

Everythings fine and dandy now, but usually every single what would be thought of as insignificant decision made within the relationship tends to cause some pretty huge waves at the outer edges, and the more made, the larger they tend to get.

Yes, 5-10 years from now, it may not be a problem, 15 year may start to cause some irritation, 20 years and your probably fileing for seperation of some sort.

Usually with age, some either fall completely off the religious block, others tend to grab ahold of it by both hands and stand on it, swinging madly at getting other onto the wagon as well. I've seen this myself, it's very interesting and disturbing at the same time.

You bring kids into this, and the whole thought to be well oiled machine litterly flies apart. IMO the best way to do things is to let the kids decide for themselves, the moment any form of disagreement is made, the shit has already hit the fan reguardless of if it seems like it's over and done with, it'll damn well be brought up again, you can count on it, and usually with a bit more pressure.

And lastly, i completely disagree with the whole "male vs female" in whom may push what, less we forget, everyone has the same pushing power, other just are much more endowed with the power to be more convincing.

Maddogg6

this would be great if it were the typical - but in reality - it is not.... how many kids are sent to private religion based schools - is that allowing to make their own decision... or - did you ever hear of this from the typical 5 year old who fidgets in church??

'I decided to be agnostic, our church doesn't do it for me, so, I'll stay at home while my mom and dad goto church without me' - its just not very realistic to expect from what I see. Granted a dad staying at home *could* work - but what kind of ridicule would she endure because of this? Could she deal with it.... I have met few who could personally.

and - something I didn't mention before .. any contradictions between mom and dad detected by the kid - will definitely be used against them both to get their way - kids *do* need guidance - and to hand over such a devastating weapon against a parents argument is not a good thing either.

What kind of a message does going to church *half* the time give - is that still a choice? Some things are very difficult to 'split' equally - like how a child is raised (you only get one chance, and half and half could be like halving half of your needed plane fair - even if you could get on a plane that gets you half way there - your still not reaching your destination) - and thus, why this aspect is why it becomes a bigger issue/problem.

Vikingod

Well, this topic has gone off the deep-end.

To CD's, honestly, I wouldn't think about it as much as some of these guys would have you, and I certainly wouldn't jump to broad conclusions like some are. I can't imagine it's as much an issue as people are making it, assuming she's not churning butter on your porch, wearing a bonnet, and saying Dinosaurs never existed.

There is nothing wrong with having religion, or not having it, as long as it makes you happy and answers your questions, I think. If it becomes a problem with you and your new girlfriend, you'll know it, and know when it's time to get out.

Maddogg6

I brought up scenarios I *did* see personally - so mine were not just speculation...
Those things were almost never considered when first forging relationships...

How so?? the OP asked what problems *could* arise...

I mean - sure there *are* successful relationships such as CD's.... but their success is not so advertised as the problematic ones are - so they are difficult to track.

CDsDontBurn

Simple answers are sometimes the best answers . Thanks Vikingod.

Maddogg6

very true indeed - sometimes...